[tommytwotone]

I posted higher up the thread re: the success of our controlled crying with Clem - in short that it seems to have worked.

Agree with Chris...was saying on WhatsApp the other day that now I've had kid #2 I don't think it's brought that much in the way of parental revelations.

So far the only things I've really learned / been reminded of are how generally repetitive and often tedious raising a child is (till they're about 3 I reckon), and that whether it's sleep, discipline or mealtimes that routine, routine, routine is really important.

[Oldmanmatt]

Til they’re  3!?

You should have been here for my ten year old daughter’s absolute fucking arsehole day, yesterday.
We’re a family of six, and by the time we finally got her to sleep last night, everyone had sworn loudly at her, including the other kids.
And bad language is not normally tolerated in our household.

Our situation is exacerbated by the “Twins but not Twins” thing between our youngest.
They look like twins, both blond, blue eyed, seemingly angelic. Alex is exactly three weeks older than Lily, they are not genetically related, but even teachers who have known them since reception and well know our background, forget this.

They exist in a bipolar state of either total war or as a tag-team of coordinated mayhem. They have lived as siblings since they were 3, so have no real memories of any other state. Nothing will bring them into any form of “maturity” and “sensible” or even “calm” are not within their lexicon.
Lily has a temper, that has to be seen to be believed and she reserves it for family. It took surreptitious video recording, to get the school psychologist to understand. No one could believe the “Little Angel” could have a flip side.

Yesterday was an unrelenting shit storm of tantrums and defiance. Left us both on the verge of tears and close to a row, between ourselves.
Despite all the plans and boundaries we’ve agree, if one of us, disciplines the other’s child; there’s friction and resentment.

And don’t the little sods know it!

[tommytwotone]

I meant more in the sense of just the bad nights, the feeding them Calpol when they're ill, the feeding, the bathing, the bedtimes, rinse and repeat.

My memory is that at least once we had Una walking, potty trained, not needing a daytime nap and talking, life became immeasurably more manageable in terms of being able to do things, and without meticulous planning. 

That said we definitely have a similar "Little Angel" who can go full Krakatoa on us at the slightest provocation (and she does choose some weird hills on which to die). The only plus side is she saves that behaviour for home and would never do it at school / to anyone else but us.

Don't envy you trying to keep order with that many kids and a blended family Matt. 2 children is plenty enough for me. One of my New Year's Resolutions / jobs is to get myself fully...errrr....decommissioned.

[Will Hunt]

One of my New Year's Resolutions / jobs is to get myself fully...errrr....decommissioned.

I think the procedure is reversible, so really you'd just be mothballed.

Our darling nearly 19 month old is generally a very happy and easy child. At the moment, she's relatively easy to put to bed. After bath time we wind down with books and 10-15 mins of CBeebies (In The Night Garden - what the fuck is that all about? Is Iggle Piggle dead? Is this purgatory? Is Tombliboo Unn meant to look like Kim Jong Un?) and then once the first couple of yawns and eye rubs have come through it's off to bed, normally between half 6 and 7.

Of late she's had a little trouble settling herself and has wanted us in the room. It seems to be enough if the landing light is on, and maybe one of us is somewhere upstairs while she nods off - this is fine. The real shitter is that she will occassionaly wake up early (4.20am this morning) and then complain (crying without the conviction of actual hunger or distress) until somebody comes into her room, at which point she immediately quietens. If you try and lay her back down she'll scream. My wife invariably ends up being the first one awake with this and has taken to bringing her into our bed, where sometimes she will fall asleep, but more often will start to properly wake up and then roam around the bed saying "hiya" to anyone or anything she encounters.

I can only really see three options here: controlled crying, which I would rather not do as I don't think my wife will have the conviction to stick with it. Once she's been woken at that time, she's unlikely to get meaningfully back to sleep so just tends to get up.
Option 2 would be to figure out why the waking up happens so early sometimes. Maybe she's cold and we should put an extra blanket on when we go to bed? Maybe she goes to bed "too early", though her bedtime suits us as we still get an evening (I have friends whose kids of the same age go to bed between 8 and 9) and her bedtime is generally self-led - i.e. we put her to bed when she shows us that she's had enough.
Option 3 could be a bit of a curveball. The fact that she settles better when the landing light is on makes me wonder whether she's started to become afraid of the dark. I wonder whether having her night light on would mean that if she wakes up early she'll settle again without comfort from us? Maybe I could leave a couple of pop up books at the end of her cot so that she can entertain herself when she wakes up in the morning?

Ideas welcome.

[tomtom]

Christ Will, that sounds like heaven!

Ours (2.4yrs) has a bath at about 6:30 then in bed about 7. He then takes between an hour and 2 hours of having stories read to him - singing - other stuff etc.. He won’t settle on his own - has to go to sleep with one of us next to him. He sleeps in a futon - so its easy for us to crash next to him etc.. 

He wakes during the night about 50% of the time but (at the moment) is settled quite quickly but one of us has to stay with him until he drops off. Sometimes he wants me, sometimes its his mother. He then wakes at about 6-6:30 - and may sit in bed and read for 20-30 min or may be more vocal.

We’ve just got used to this and deal with it... Removing daytime naps, milk before bed etc. Etc.. etc.. he’s just one of those people who doesn’t need much sleep.

MrsTT is VERY much against controlled crying - I let him grizzle for a bit but if it reaches the point where he’s getting really angry then its (a) not very nice for him and (b) becomes self defeating..  He is old enough and cognitive enough to reason with and persuade to do things (including sleep)

[Simon W]

Found this quite useful for early waking with our three year old. She starting wanting to get up at 4am about a year ago.

You can set it so it changes from a blue screen with stars to a yellow sun at the time you want them to wake up. Have no idea if it was the security of a better night light in her room or the star sun thing that helped but would recommend giving it a try.

https://www.johnlewis.com/gro-clock/p230928843?sku=230928843&s_kwcid=2dx92700027800954095&tmad=c&tmcampid=2&gclsrc=aw.ds&&gclid=EAIaIQobChMIkojx97Kn3wIVRrvtCh1JKAAOEAQYAiABEgI5uPD_BwE

[petekitso]

I have three kids - youngest now 6 and they have all been pretty different on sleep. We did controlled crying with the eldest and it seemed to work (a couple of nights of terrible guilt and it was over). Tried the same with the youngest and it did not work at all, in fact probably contributed to separation anxiety which he is still affected by now. The oldest two have to be in cave dark conditions whereas he sleeps much better with a night light on and door open.

Clearly, I should not be giving advice on this topic but . . .

Have you tried rousing her a couple of hours before she wakes naturally? We did it with middle son in similar circumstances and kept it up for a few nights and it seemed to break the habit/cycle. Idea is that they begin to wake without actually waking. I overdid it a couple of times and started the day at 3am with an overexcited toddler. Not recommended.

[nai]

I Tried the same with the youngest and it did not work at all, in fact probably contributed to separation anxiety which he is still affected by now. The oldest two have to be in cave dark conditions whereas he sleeps much better with a night light on and door open.

My youngest too, slept terribly as a baby so we tried it and in retrospect seems we overdid it. Also uses a night-light unless she's in a room with someone else and has a real fear of being abandoned.  Doesn't stop her wondering off in Decathlon and getting lost though. Proper parenting shame when you hear "can the parents of your child please contact security" over the tannoy.

[Oldmanmatt]

I keep trying to remember what worked.
But it was either 13 or 10 years ago respectively.
We tried the “self soothing” on number one demon, sorry, daughter, I remember that much, but I know I spent hour upon hour dancing around the apartment, bouncing her and singing nonsense ditties. Often resorting to driving around Dubai in the early hours, as that was a certain sleep inducer and gave one of us a few hours break.
The boy, was better anyway, but he had a few bad patches. By the time he turned one, we were into Chemo and Stoma bags and Surgery and... and...
So, chemical respite was easier to accept ( vauge notions of noble suffering and similar shit, wither rapidly in the that blazing nova of reality) and bringing Grandparents into play was an enormous help; something unavailable during the expat years.
Just sending the Mrs off to my parents for a weekend or vice versa, helped massively. Mamaia (the Romanian mother-in-law) moving in for a time, to play nanny, saved our sanity.
But there were so many times it all got too much. Tears, rows, sulks, slammed doors and hours spent staring at the sea, wishing I hadn’t said something; certainly happened. They seem so distant and unimportant now, though. I know she said things that cut to the bone, I know I did too. I can’t remember any of them.
It’s a bit like Mountaineering, really, actually a whole lot of misery, that somehow, you can’t wait to repeat...

[SA Chris]

Removing daytime naps

Dodgy ground if you do it too soon, overtiredness can cause disturbed sleep. a thin line to walk.

[GazM]

Dodgy ground if you do it too soon, overtiredness can cause disturbed sleep. a thin line to walk.
[/quote]
Amen brother.  I experimented with 1 short nap yesterday with Ben (15 months) and we were up 3 times with him last night. Won't be doing that again in a hurry.

[tomtom]

Its all a bit random - there seems to be no relation to sleep and naps - except if he doesnt have a nap (or didnt hes not too bad now) bedtime was overtired hell.

At the moment we're moving towards 1 hour nap before lunch rather than afternoon.

[Mike Tyson]

Well we've had better luck since the trauma of last few weeks. Sam woke briefly about 2am but I got him back down no problem. We're sticking with making sure he gets his naps in properly. A good hour and half in morning, and an hour in afternoon (but no later than 4pm)

Good naps seems to be the key for us.

[Will Hunt]

Well ours seems to be getting a cold, so was basically asleep in my arms when I put her down at half 6. I left the night light on and some books at the end of her cot. This backfired as she awoke at three, took off her sleeping bag, and must have thought it was time to get up. Didn't go back to sleep for 45 mins but then did sleep till a little after 6.
 

[Mike Tyson]

Will, I feel your pain! All our disruption stated with him getting a cold. That was 3 weeks ago!

We tried our best to make him comfortable with all the old tricks, elevated mattress at one end, snuffle babe/vix thingy on chest and soles of feet, liquid vapour stuff in jug of boiling water underneath the cot....

Best of luck mate.

[tomtom]

Well ours seems to be getting a cold, so was basically asleep in my arms when I put her down at half 6. I left the night light on and some books at the end of her cot. This backfired as she awoke at three, took off her sleeping bag, and must have thought it was time to get up. Didn't go back to sleep for 45 mins but then did sleep till a little after 6.
 

That'd be a good night for us!!!

[nik at work]

That'd be a good night for us!!!

Is the My Life Is Worst parent as irritating as the smug parent...
we used to have to get up before we went to bed etc...
 

[Will Hunt]

I mea"Little Angel" who can go full Krakatoa on us at the slightest provocation (and she does choose some weird hills on which to die).

One of the best things I've seen shared on Facebook recently is an album of photos of toddlers having full DEFCON 1 meltdowns with a simple caption explaining the cause. One of them is a little girl sat in front of her dinner, wearing oven mitts, with her head tossed back in a wide-mouthed wail of utter despair. The caption reads: she can't pick up her fork. Another shows a young boy beating his tiny fists against the floor, sobbing uncontrollably. In the foreground is a Ritz cracker with one of the tiny edge crenellations broken off. The caption reads: I can't fix his biscuit.

Well ours seems to be getting a cold, so was basically asleep in my arms when I put her down at half 6. I left the night light on and some books at the end of her cot. This backfired as she awoke at three, took off her sleeping bag, and must have thought it was time to get up. Didn't go back to sleep for 45 mins but then did sleep till a little after 6.
 

That'd be a good night for us!!!

I was quite reluctant to post as it did seem like a bit of a humblebrag in light of the struggles of others. The fact that she's so good means that you end up being anxious about when it will end and what it will lead to. I'm fairly sure that the level of payback we need means she'll be running a terrorist cell from her bedroom by the time she's eight.

[tomtom]

That'd be a good night for us!!!

Is the My Life Is Worst parent as irritating as the smug parent...
we used to have to get up before we went to bed etc...
 

Then no one can say anything!

[Rocksteady]

Its all a bit random - there seems to be no relation to sleep and naps - except if he doesnt have a nap (or didnt hes not too bad now) bedtime was overtired hell.

At the moment we're moving towards 1 hour nap before lunch rather than afternoon.

Loving this thread, good advice and pain sharing honesty. We find there is little correlation between nap numbers/timing and sleep quality, as long as he has one good nap a day. We are always way off the 'recommended' number of hours for naps for his age. I've tried all the consistent routine, dark room stuff, watching like a hawk for tired signals, etc. Just seems random. I had 10 weeks of Shared Parental Leave looking after my boy on my own and reckon I spent three times as much time obsessing about nap time than baby spent napping.

Didn't mean to infer that anyone in this thread is in the smug parent camp, sounds like everyone has lived through their share of sleep-deprivation hell. I was thinking of some people from our NCT group who made my blood boil. I quote:

"Have you tried controlled crying? We did it from 8 weeks. Little C cried constantly for 22 minutes. Then he fell asleep. Since then he has slept through the night."
22 minutes just kept going through my head. My kid has defo cried 90 minutes when left to have a 90 minute nap. Last night he cried about 22 mins with me cuddling him and singing 'Silent Night' over and over.

"God our baby has been up 3 times the last 2 nights with her cold. We're exhausted. This is from a baby who has slept through the night since the day she was born. I'm worried there is something wrong with her. I'm thinking of getting a sleep consultant."
TBH I just thought this was ridiculous. Although this mum also obsesses over the danger of Christmas trees and her baby opening cupboards etc, while at the moment her kid cannot yet crawl properly.

We are getting a bit 4 Yorkshiremen though. Oh you used to have to get up before you went to bed? We were up so much we sold the bed and just stood up rocking the baby all the time for 8 years etc...

On another note - I was turned off controlled crying/crying it out by the book 'What Every Parent Needs to Know' by Margot Sunderland. She was quoting a bunch of science about how babies become much more anxious adults if left alone, to the point where certain parts of their brain simply don't develop. However, I more recently read 'The Boy who was raised as a Dog' by Bruce Perry (wholeheartedly recommend btw, most readable scientific book I have ever read). My understanding is that it is his investigations on brain development of neglected children that is the 'science' in this area - he was the one who did the brain scans.
But his study was looking at seriously neglected kids - i.e. dormitories of hundreds of Russian orphans who were changed a couple of times a day and never cuddled. And kids who were literally raised in the same way as a mentally subnormal man's dogs.
I think the whole anti-controlled crying thing is based on his studies. But I don't think his studies support the conclusion drawn by Margot Sunderland etc. He's saying that severely neglected kids show lack of brain development in the 'human parts' of their brain, and will operate more on the 'lizard/chimp brains', with higher anxiety/aggression etc. Controlled crying from a loving parent who cuddles etc isn't even on the same spectrum of neglect, and it seems unlikely that his findings would have any read across?

[galpinos]

In those NCT/new parent environments people often play it up or down. When I challanged (I was quite tired at this point) one dad about their child who slept through from (I can't remember the number but if sounded like bullshit) weeks it turn out that he classed "slept through" as from 11pm to 4am with one get up.

My 5 yo is a doddle, she reads her book for a bit until we tell her to go to sleep, she does and then she gets up about 7ish. However, as a baby we spent ages singing/rocking/pandering to her every need to get her down. School sorted her out as she's shattered all the time now.

My 2 yo has always gone down easily, we could literally chuck her in the cot and she'd sleep but I count the number of nights she's slept through on my fingers. One get up and a six on the clock when we are woken is current the best we can hope for.

We haven't (conciously) treated them differently, kids are just unique. What works for one....... I still cling to the best parenting advice I ever got, "Whether they are being amazing or it's all going to shit, it's just a phase and it will change, for better or worse!" Stop me despairing/being too smug.

[Durbs]

Hah - we were (privately) smug parents for child number one who slept through pretty quickly and weened herself off the boob really easily.

Her younger brother on the hand; 15 months, still feeds 2-4 times per night, generally wakes up at 5:30, thinks food is a fun activity rather than something to actually fill you up (so you don't need the boob), hates calpol/neurofen... Urgh.

Parented him the same as far as we can tell - they're just different.

Never going down the cry-it-out method for sleep training (Mrs is a child psychologist...), but controlled crying (time-limited before going into comfort) might be the route we go down to improve his sleeping. The issue is he's often, though not always, crying because he's hungry, not because he can't get back to sleep. So no amount of joggling and twinkle-twinkle will get him back to sleep. But switching boob-juice for moo-juice just transfers the reliance.

With his sister we did the withdrawal method (fnar); start off cuddling (but not until they're asleep) for a few days, then patting, then hand on back, then sitting next to cot, then sitting with back to the cot, then outside the room talking/singing (usually whilst reading a book or playing on phone). Worked pretty well but took a good few weeks.

Despite this lack of sleep and money, the Mrs is still considering a third.
Mentalist.

[tomtom]

Despite this lack of sleep and money, the Mrs is still considering a third.
Mentalist.

:D we're having similar conversations (re #2)

[nik at work]

I remember my wife suggesting a second child.

I made a number of well reasoned logical arguments for why this wasn't a good idea. Ultimately constructing a cast iron case against the proposal...

...so we now have two children...

...which is ace 

[Oldmanmatt]

I thoroughly recommend a large brood.
Very satisfying and rewarding.
Tiring and full of pit falls, but worth it.

Uh, wtf is an NCT?

Is it like those Farcebook “Mum’s groups”?
Because my better half follows a few of those and as far as I can tell, everything is a vaccine injury, all you need are essential oils and at least five of the group are calling CPS about your last post...