[tommytwotone]

Thought I'd put something on here as it might help someone avoid / get out of the hell we've been in.

Our son (18 months) has never been a good sleeper but recently we've hit a nadir where he's often up twice in the night (when we've been giving him a bottle), then is up for the day at 4am.

A few weeks of this performance has left us at our wits end, and has left us (well, me mainly) tired, grumpy and argumentative with each other. The stress levels in our house have been quite high.

In desperation I started looking at controlled crying / "cry it out" as a technique and figured that while it might feel a bit cruel

a) I can see how we've conditioned him that if he cries, someone will come up, feed him and give him a cuddle
b) he needs to learn to settle himself if he wakes up in the night
c) it's us that dictates what's an acceptable time to be up in the morning, not him

So, I bit the bullet this weekend. Done away with the bottles, and if he woke up crying I went up, resettled him (lie on back, dummy in, white noise on, leave room - minimum of interaction).

We figured 6am is the earliest acceptable time to be awake in our house so if he can manage that we're happy.

Friday night - stirred a few times in the night, woke up at 4:07am and screamed solidly until 6am. I think I made about 20 trips to his room.

Saturday night - woke once in the night, resettled him and he dropped straight off. Woke up at 4:45am, resettled him and he griped for about 15 mins but then dropped off and then slept till 7am.

Sunday night - woke once in the night, resettled him and he dropped straight off, then slept through - my alarm went off this morning at 6am, I got up and got ready for work and he was still asleep when I left!

I feel like a different person this morning due to a combination of better sleep for a couple of nights, and the dread of the impending 4am wake-up being lifted. Aware this may be short-lived but I thought I'd share it if anyone is going through the same thing.

[Oldmanmatt]

Bonza mate!

In truth, by child 2, this becomes the default; because the crying is less alarming.
By child 4, it takes a simultaneous hurricane, Earthquake, Armed police raid and synchronised smoke alarms sounding, to rouse you from your slumber, if it’s not your “turn”...

[Will Hunt]

That sounds like an excellent result, 3T. I would say that anybody reading the thread for advice will want to carefully consider whether this is right for their bairn though. "Controlled crying" has been linked with increased incidences of mental health problems such as anxiety in later life. Something to do with the stress hormones that are released during crying.
Sounds like it worked a treat for 18 month old 3T Lite, but I know some people who've used it for extended periods on sub-9 month old babies who are probably crying in the night for different reasons, as opposed to out of sheer devilment!

[SA Chris]

In my view it's the first time as a parent you have to play "tough love" and not give your child what they want, because it's not actually doing them (or anyone) any good, they are creatures of habit like all of us. You'll need to do this kind of thing many times in their life, get used to it.

[Oldmanmatt]

That sounds like an excellent result, 3T. I would say that anybody reading the thread for advice will want to carefully consider whether this is right for their bairn though. "Controlled crying" has been linked with increased incidences of mental health problems such as anxiety in later life. Something to do with the stress hormones that are released during crying.
Sounds like it worked a treat for 18 month old 3T Lite, but I know some people who've used it for extended periods on sub-9 month old babies who are probably crying in the night for different reasons, as opposed to out of sheer devilment!

Humour aside, the important part of that technique is that you do actually check on the child. Looking for other symptoms etc. There is supposed to be a physical resettling and reassurance, without verbal/singing/feeding etc. comfort.
It’s incredibly unscientific, but I have always felt, that you come to learn their cries. To know which are temper tantrums, or pain, or hunger or just plain wrong and worrying.

[tommytwotone]

Not sure if anyone of the Dadsdem have come across this yet, but if you're in a Childcare Voucher scheme, it's all changing come Sept/Oct of this year.

There a new government scheme called Tax-Free Childcare which anyone with kids hitting the relevant age would go into - however if you're on an existing Childcare Voucher Scheme apparently in some cases (like mine) you've got the option of staying in that instead.

Predictably, it's all massively complex, highly dependent on personal situation re: kids' ages, number of kids, earning etc.

Thought I'd drop a heads-up to anyone else who's going to be drawing up a massively complex Excel* spreadsheet in the near future!

A bit more info here:

https://www.moneysavingexpert.com/family/tax-free-childcare/

*open source equivalents are available for free

[Mike Tyson]

I am sat here typing this post after another hellish night with the boy. He has been full of cold for weeks, with a barking cough. Been to the quacks twice under orders from the boss, but GP happy it's nothing sinister.

So we are currently enduring fucked up night times. Sam will go to bed fine (anywhere within an hour time slot between 7pm.and 8pm) but then wakes up between 1.30am and 2.30am and decides he wants to be awake for a few hours. It is driving us insane! A random night here and there I can handle but week after week off having these split nights is torture. I find myself getting really agitated by it, which is wrong as its not the poor little lads fault. It doesn't help that I do a very physically demanding job in the outdoors, and that I'm in constant pain with my shoulder.

Any wise words from the UKB dad crew? The Mrs consulted Google as per usual. And she sent me a link which she claims has the answer. All I can make from it, is too wake him earlier and put him to be later.... 

[Mike Tyson]

Ps. I'm going in for a shoulder operation in January, so will be unable to use my left arm for a fair length of time. So I'm hoping for a quick fix with the sleep thing...... 

Jokes aside, my other half is going to have to do a hell of a lot more as I'm going to be not much use. I think this is going to be tougher than anything else we've endured with Sam, as she will want a stone statue carved in her honour to show how much of a martyr she has been.... I'm never going to hear the end of it. I'm going under the knife, and I think she thinks she will be getting the raw end of the deal 

[SA Chris]

Hope they prescribe you morphine based drugs for the pain. That'll help you sleep!

[Mike Tyson]

Me too Chris!

[shurt]

I am sat here typing this post after another hellish night with the boy. He has been full of cold for weeks, with a barking cough. Been to the quacks twice under orders from the boss, but GP happy it's nothing sinister.

So we are currently enduring fucked up night times. Sam will go to bed fine (anywhere within an hour time slot between 7pm.and 8pm) but then wakes up between 1.30am and 2.30am and decides he wants to be awake for a few hours. It is driving us insane! A random night here and there I can handle but week after week off having these split nights is torture. I find myself getting really agitated by it, which is wrong as its not the poor little lads fault. It doesn't help that I do a very physically demanding job in the outdoors, and that I'm in constant pain with my shoulder.

Any wise words from the UKB dad crew? The Mrs consulted Google as per usual. And she sent me a link which she claims has the answer. All I can make from it, is too wake him earlier and put him to be later.... 

How old is the little dude? Had this with one of mine. Kids do go through periods of bad sleep due to developmental leaps which happen at quite predictable intervals. If. You Google sleep regressions theres loads of stuff online...

No one really gives you the lowdown on the lack of sleep before you have kids do they??! My youngest has his last two teeth coming through at the moment and it's been going on for literally months. The early years are hard yakka

[Oldmanmatt]

Why is it wrong to feel irritable about this?
Have you had your “human” removed?
Because that’s the only way that this would not be irritating and wearing.
It doesn’t matter what the details of the situation are: cronic illness, snoring, restless children, anxiety, depression, noisy neighbors or the whole gamut of things that interfere with sleep patterns; are amongst  the hardest things you can deal with.
Just remember to cut each other a break.
In the past, we have successfully used Diazepam, to mitigate this.
For me, I used it during my wife’s illness, when my mother-in-law could be on standby.
More recently, during a difficult bout of bed wetting and night terrors, with one of our (traumatised) offspring. We alternated care responsibilities and drug use.

We laid down rules, such as only once a week for pill popping. Asking the GP to refuse repeat prescription. Bin remaining stock, the instant the problem eased etc.

Not had to do it for four years now.

[SA Chris]

Daughter of 6 1/2 went through a phase recently of sleeping badly, separation anxiety etc. She wouldn't say what the cause was, but it was just after Remembrance weekend, so may have been related; possibly a mortal fear that her parents could die any time, so she kept waking up in the night for a few weeks, and coming in to check we were both there and both alive. She got gradually better, but it too a few weeks before she was sleeping through the night again.

[Rocksteady]

I am sat here typing this post after another hellish night with the boy. He has been full of cold for weeks, with a barking cough. Been to the quacks twice under orders from the boss, but GP happy it's nothing sinister.

So we are currently enduring fucked up night times. Sam will go to bed fine (anywhere within an hour time slot between 7pm.and 8pm) but then wakes up between 1.30am and 2.30am and decides he wants to be awake for a few hours. It is driving us insane! A random night here and there I can handle but week after week off having these split nights is torture. I find myself getting really agitated by it, which is wrong as its not the poor little lads fault. It doesn't help that I do a very physically demanding job in the outdoors, and that I'm in constant pain with my shoulder.

Any wise words from the UKB dad crew? The Mrs consulted Google as per usual. And she sent me a link which she claims has the answer. All I can make from it, is too wake him earlier and put him to be later.... 

Man I feel your pain. My son is 11 months old and has slept through the night just 3 times. The thing I find most irritating when I am woken by his barking in the middle of the night is all the different ways he finds of being shit at sleeping.

So far he has tried -
> Simply taking ages to go to sleep and crying unless continually rocked. This was the worst as you lost your evening as well as your night.
> Waking up at 1am and 3.30am. To be honest this is my favourite and about as good as he gets.
> Waking up 3x a night. Difficult but bearable.
> Waking up at 2hr intervals. Progressively more annoying as the night goes on.
> Sleeping until 4am and then waking up every 20 minutes. Horrendous.
> Sleeping until 4.30am then basically being awake for the day. Awful.

He also often refuses to nap in the day so is basically knackering. Luckily he is otherwise a very chilled and happy baby so not too hard to spend time with.
Losing sleep makes us super-irritable and short-tempered. Also boring as we spend most of the time discussing why he won't sleep and what we should try to improve things.
My wife has compressed her hours so is up at 6am four days a week for work which is making it all extra-gruelling.

I am in the middle of this so don't know if I have any advice to share. Only sympathy. Best advice I feel I've been given is to speak gently to each other and cut each other some slack. Live in hope that the bad sleep phase will pass. Also idea that some babies are just not as sleepy as others, just as some people are not as sleepy as others. I also have a theory that babies who grow teeth early have more sleep problems.

Actually, I do have advice - avoid smug parents whose babies sleep really well and who assume that you must be doing parenting wrongly. They will give you patronising advice that you tried 8 months ago and didn't work. Also they will complain when their kid has a cold and wakes up once.

Good luck.

[nik at work]

YMMV/this isn't for everyone/different folk different strokes etc but....

Rocksteady (and possibly MT, not sure how old your moppet is...) both of our children have been initially very poor sleepers. Our first was horrendous, and we did all the cuddling to sleep for hours on end, only to wake up in a few hours/minutes and repeat, all night, every night... for years... Looking back I can't believe we did it and all survived.

So for thing2 I knew that I couldn't do the same thing again. He was from the outset a marginally better sleeper but I could feel us slipping into the same routine. So we had a planning session and deicided 2 things:
1) We needed to try something potentially quite drastic
2) Of the two of us I was the biggest cunt.

So we did... dum, dum, derrrrrr... Controlled crying (boo! Hiss!!). My wife went and slept in thing1's bedroom (luckily at the other end of a long house) and I settled down to a night of ignoring a screaming baby. Thing2 was in a cot in our bedroom so could see me if he woke up, and I could see him. The usual round of waking and crying started, but no cuddles. a quick get up and lay the scream machine back down to sleep then straight back in to bed for the first 3/4 attempts then ignore. First scream-fests were in very quick succession but then the time gaps increased and eventually (after a fuck-tonne of crying and feeling like the single worst person who has ever lived) there was a decent spell of uninterrupted sleep. Night two was better, but the wife still stayed in thing1's bedroom. Night 3 he was up once and from then on he has basically slept through every night unless actually physically being sick. Until he got old enough to start having nightmares....

I'm not saying it will work for everyone, but if one of you can be evil enough it is worth trying (it's also a great conversation starter at any baby-groups you may go to, especially if combined with the opinion that breast feeding seems "a bit too much trouble"  )

[andy popp]

Actually, I do have advice - avoid smug parents whose babies sleep really well and who assume that you must be doing parenting wrongly. They will give you patronising advice that you tried 8 months ago and didn't work. Also they will complain when their kid has a cold and wakes up once.

Good advice. In fact, I suspect all those parents who smugly tell you "Oh yes, Quentin's been sleeping through since he was two months" are lying on a Trump like scale.

[SA Chris]

So we did... dum, dum, derrrrrr... Controlled crying (boo! Hiss!!). My wife went and slept in thing1's bedroom (luckily at the other end of a long house) and I settled down to a night of ignoring a screaming baby. Thing2 was in a cot in our bedroom so could see me if he woke up, and I could see him. The usual round of waking and crying started, but no cuddles. a quick get up and lay the scream machine back down to sleep then straight back in to bed for the first 3/4 attempts then ignore. First scream-fests were in very quick succession but then the time gaps increased and eventually (after a fuck-tonne of crying and feeling like the single worst person who has ever lived) there was a decent spell of uninterrupted sleep. Night two was better, but the wife still stayed in thing1's bedroom. Night 3 he was up once and from then on he has basically slept through every night unless actually physically being sick. Until he got old enough to start having nightmares....

We had to do it with T1 too, when he was about 10 months. Gruelling for 3 nights, but after that he would still wake up, fuss a bit, and go back to sleep without a feed, and in a week was sleeping through the night. Getting him to be able to go to sleep unassisted was, in my view, probably the first thing we taught him to do, and it benefited us all massively in the long run.

Luckily T2 managed to figure it out sleeping through herself at about 9 months, but we still had issues with getting her to nap properly in anywhere but a baby bjorn, but sorted that out with a bit of training art 6 months.

And as Andy and RS says, most parents lie about what their kids do, especially sleeping.

[Mike Tyson]

In a somewhat amazing coincidence, Sam slept from 9pm until 6.15am today!

You couldn't make this shit up! The ball and chain was out on her works Christmas party last night. So I decided I'd give the controlled crying thing a whirl. It was pretty bad, but once he actually went to sleep he didn't stir once.

Knowing my luck it'll be a one off though! Thanks to all the fellow sleep deprived dad's out there who took the time to reply. I feel your pain if you're enduring similar to my situation.

[cheque]

I suspect all those parents who smugly tell you "Oh yes, Quentin's been sleeping through since he was two months" are lying on a Trump like scale.

Fake snooze.

[Mike Tyson]

And back to square one we go.... Friday night must've been a blip.

Really struggled last night, lost my temper and the travel cot took the brunt of it. I really do love my other half and my son, but my god did they frustrate me!

Hoping to try controlled crying again tonight, trying to get my lass to understand that it isn't a pleasant experience but it's worth it.

[nik at work]

Not sure if I've misunderstood your post but I think that if you want the best chance of success with controlled crying tou need to do it consistently, every night.
I'd suggest dicussing it with your partner and if you agree to try it you both need to do it, and if one of you can't then it's better if they remove themselves from the situation (i.e. my wife sleeping in another, distant, room).

Hopefully not coming across as one of the above mentioned  smug parents, rest assured I have committed no shortage of howlers in my attempts at parenting...

[Mike Tyson]

I wasn’t very clear.... we put him to bed fine, he just woke up about 11.30pm and no matter how much we tried to put him down, the tears continued. Back to the split sleep thing again.

We really struggle to get any separation in our house as it’s fairly small and has very thin walls. So you hear the screaming everywhere apart from the garage!

[rich d]

my two are now older thank fuck (but it's just a different set of problems). My first was a nightmare for sleeping, we ended up doing the controlled crying and in my sleep deprived memories it worked when we did it consistently and didn't give in, it has to happen over a period of time until it has worked, if you go back on it and crack it's back to square one. For usit had to be a joint process - I remember sitting on the bottom of the stairs together - basically rocking backwards and forwards - whilst our daughter cried then did this awful sobbing noise. BUT it worked in the end, we started to get sleep and could function again.
Good luck
Rich

[SA Chris]

The advice i read was whatever you decide to do, stick with it, or else it's wasted effort and frustration for everyone.

[tomtom]

And when they get poorly it all goes out of the window... :D