[Tris]

If you down-climb a route, can you still claim the onsight? (no weighting of gear)

I have read various threads going back over the years on here and UKC and there seems to be no clear answer so far... some people say it is, others not.

Personally I think if you down-climb a route, then you shouldn't be able to claim the onsight.

[Krank]

They will help here http://www.ukclimbing.com/

[Tris]

They will help here http://www.ukclimbing.com/

As I said - I have checked there...

Just thought that the more friendly bunch on UKB may give me better answers, maybe not....

[dave]

[slackline]

They will help here http://www.ukclimbing.com/

As I said - I have checked there...

Just thought that the more friendly bunch on UKB may give me better answers, maybe not....

Watch James McHaffie on Masters Edge in the film "On Sight".

If you're going to say downclimbing isn't allowed, do you mean you're not allowed to downclimb to the ground or at all?  If its only the former, then what about downclimbing back to a ledge or niche for a rest, why is that allowed and not to the ground, are you only allowed to downclimb 10% of the distance you have already climbed, or is there some other arbitrary rule that should be applied?

Onsight means that you've climbed from the ground to the top without pre-practice/top-rope inspection/weighting the ropes/being told significant beta.  If you climb up so far, and then return to the ground under your own steam you still have no knowledge of the remainder of the route.  I'm sure you could riposte that taken to absurdity you could do one move, climb down, rest do two moves, climb down rest and repeat ad nauseum, but I think we both know that thats a) absurd and b) now what you're getting at.

Watch On Sight, its a great film.

[Stubbs]

Nice one Slackers, that about covers it; lock this topic now!

[Tris]

Watch James McHaffie on Masters Edge in the film "On Sight".

If you're going to say downclimbing isn't allowed, do you mean you're not allowed to downclimb to the ground or at all?  If its only the former, then what about downclimbing back to a ledge or niche for a rest, why is that allowed and not to the ground, are you only allowed to downclimb 10% of the distance you have already climbed, or is there some other arbitrary rule that should be applied?

Onsight means that you've climbed from the ground to the top without pre-practice/top-rope inspection/weighting the ropes/being told significant beta.  If you climb up so far, and then return to the ground under your own steam you still have no knowledge of the remainder of the route.  I'm sure you could riposte that taken to absurdity you could do one move, climb down, rest do two moves, climb down rest and repeat ad nauseum, but I think we both know that thats a) absurd and b) now what you're getting at.

Watch On Sight, its a great film.

I do have a copy of onsight, and it was watching it yesterday morning that made me think of this 

I think onsight should mean climbed first go from bottom to top, not in as many attempts as you like.

For example say you have a route with easy moves and one hard move at the top, you can do the easy moves as many times as you want and down-climb, then do the hard move whenever. Surely this is onsighting a move, not a route?

[Tris]

Nice one Slackers, that about covers it; lock this topic now!

Why - can you give me a definite answer?

[Krank]

because its a shit topic, onsight has a meaning and thats what it means.

[slackline]

I do have a copy of onsight, and it was watching it yesterday morning that made me think of this 

I think onsight should mean climbed first go from bottom to top, not in as many attempts as you like.

For example say you have a route with easy moves and one hard move at the top, you can do the easy moves as many times as you want and down-climb, then do the hard move whenever. Surely this is onsighting a move, not a route?

How do you reconcile this with...

If you're going to say downclimbing isn't allowed, do you mean you're not allowed to downclimb to the ground or at all?  If its only the former, then what about downclimbing back to a ledge or niche for a rest, why is that allowed and not to the ground, are you only allowed to downclimb 10% of the distance you have already climbed, or is there some other arbitrary rule that should be applied?

You're never allowed to moved backwards!!!  You've never pulled up, reached for what you thought was a good hold only to find its a shitty sloper and then lowered back down to have a better look, check you're gears good (again) and then gone for it?  Thats (at an absurd extreme) downclimbing and therefore incommensurable with your assertion that downclimbing is not allowed.

Besides which I'd anticipated that with...

I'm sure you could riposte that taken to absurdity you could do one move, climb down, rest do two moves, climb down rest and repeat ad nauseum, but I think we both know that thats a) absurd and b) not what you're getting at.

 

[Palomides]

Nice one Slackers, that about covers it; lock this topic now!

Why - can you give me a definite answer?

No-one can give you a definitive answer, because there isn't one.

For what it's worth, going on my own experience of messing about, my opinion is that if one downclimbs to the ground, without weighting the rope, then an eventual ascent is still an onsight.

BUT it's not such good style as an onsight with no downclimbing.

I'd be prouder of the latter, but I'd be happy with the former.

[Tris]

because its a shit topic, onsight has a meaning and thats what it means.

If it's such a shit topic, stop reading and posting on it then

[Jaspersharpe]

LOG!

[Bonjoy]

If you want to make life hard for yourself Tris, go right ahead. I’ll carry on applying common sense. Onsighting is plenty hard enough as it is without inventing stupid rules to make it even harder. Applying competition rules (which make total sense in a time limited competition setting) to rock climbing is a nonsense. Tactical down climbing is a totally sensible way to approach the fundamental problem of getting from bottom to top without falling off or otherwise weighting gear and requires skill and judgement.

[dave]

Its all semantics. some people take "onsight" to mean done without prior knowledge or inspection. Some take "onsight" to mean done without prior knowledge or inspection at the first attempt. Personally I'd call this "onsight flash". What we need to do its stop hoping to condense all the details about any particular ascent into one or two words. It doesn't work, since you can't even get everyone to agree on the terminology, let alone enforce that terminology.

[Tris]

Ok - I guess what I'm saying is that if you down-climb, then it is the same as a ground up ascent. You may not have weighted the rope but it's not really 'Onsight' as you have seen and climbed the bottom moves before.

[slackline]

LOG-PILE!

[Tris]

Its all semantics. some people take "onsight" to mean done without prior knowledge or inspection. Some take "onsight" to mean done without prior knowledge or inspection at the first attempt. Personally I'd call this "onsight flash". What we need to do its stop hoping to condense all the details about any particular ascent into one or two words. It doesn't work, since you can't even get everyone to agree on the terminology, let alone enforce that terminology.

Good point dave... thanks

[slackline]

Ok - I guess what I'm saying is that if you down-climb, then it is the same as a ground up ascent. You may not have weighted the rope but it's not really 'Onsight' as you have seen and climbed the bottom moves before.

But you haven't seen the top moves, and you've therefore done all of the moves onsight, albeit repeating the bottom ones to access the top ones!

What dave said (esp wrt "Onsight flash") and what Bonjoy said

[Tris]

What dave said (esp wrt "Onsight flash") and what Bonjoy said

another what dave said....

I guess it's the repeating moves bit that bugs me, the onsight for me should be in one go...

[dave]

Ok - I guess what I'm saying is that if you down-climb, then it is the same as a ground up ascent.

No, because a "ground up" ascent can still be with prior-knowledge.

You may not have weighted the rope but it's not really 'Onsight' as you have seen and climbed the bottom moves before.

This don't make any sense. So you're saying that any information you glean yourself in the course of an onsight attempt invalidates the onsight? So if you go for a hold, hold it, decide its no good then let go to find another hold then you've blown the onsight? This is becmoing a very odd definition of onsight.

Like what lovejoy said, to most people bothered about onsight what matters is turning up and getting yourself to the top of the route working everything out yourself. I don't recall meeting anyone who is bothered about doing a route where you're only allowed to progress upwards and you must use the first and only hold you hit straight away without hesitiation deviation or repetition - this is climbing not "just a minute".

[nik at work]

Each individual knows what they did, and how they did it. It's then up to them to pick a word or two to describe, completely inadequately, their style of ascent from a list of half a dozen or so choices. None of these words have concensus definitions so it is all a bit irrelevant which actual words are picked.

[Tris]

Ok - I guess what I'm saying is that if you down-climb, then it is the same as a ground up ascent.

No, because a "ground up" ascent can still be with prior-knowledge.

You may not have weighted the rope but it's not really 'Onsight' as you have seen and climbed the bottom moves before.

This don't make any sense. So you're saying that any information you glean yourself in the course of an onsight attempt invalidates the onsight? So if you go for a hold, hold it, decide its no good then let go to find another hold then you've blown the onsight? This is becmoing a very odd definition of onsight.

Like what lovejoy said, to most people bothered about onsight what matters is turning up and getting yourself to the top of the route working everything out yourself. I don't recall meeting anyone who is bothered about doing a route where you're only allowed to progress upwards and you must use the first and only hold you hit straight away without hesitiation deviation or repetition - this is climbing not "just a minute".

No but in a ground up ascent, you can fall no?

I'm saying down-climbing to the ground should not be allowed for an onsight... not reversing some moves...

[Tris]

I just found this definition:

FLASH. To climb a route without practice (but perhaps with beta) without falls on the first viewing and first attempt. (This is very similiar to onsight, which is even purer: no beta.)

Now this says 'first attempt' so I guess down-climbing is not allowed in a flash ascent...

If you have climbed the bottom moves before then surely this is beta as you know how to do them and are most likely using less energy. I think we should have a new term, maybe yoyo-onsight? 

Sorry if this thread is pissing people off, I really did want some proper debate - maybe I should have asked in Rocktalk, sorry..

[slackline]

I just found this definition:

FLASH. To climb a route without practice (but perhaps with beta) without falls on the first viewing and first attempt. (This is very similiar to onsight, which is even purer: no beta.)

Now this says 'first attempt' so I guess down-climbing is not allowed in a flash ascent...

If you have climbed the bottom moves before then surely this is beta as you know how to do them and are most likely using less energy. I think we should have a new term, maybe yoyo-onsight? 

You've already agreed with dave's "Onsight-flash" term for this!!!

Again I ask you about moving up trying a hold, not liking it coming down for a reassessment, or even after having done a few moves coming back down to a ledge for a rest, how do you reconcile this with your assertion that downclimbing is not allowed under your definition of "On-Sight"?