[Tris]

I just found this definition:

FLASH. To climb a route without practice (but perhaps with beta) without falls on the first viewing and first attempt. (This is very similiar to onsight, which is even purer: no beta.)

Now this says 'first attempt' so I guess down-climbing is not allowed in a flash ascent...

If you have climbed the bottom moves before then surely this is beta as you know how to do them and are most likely using less energy. I think we should have a new term, maybe yoyo-onsight? 

You've already agreed with dave's "Onsight-flash" term for this!!!

Again I ask you about moving up trying a hold, not liking it coming down for a reassessment, or even after having done a few moves coming back down to a ledge for a rest, how do you reconcile this with your assertion that downclimbing is not allowed under your definition of "On-Sight"?

Sorry slack---line, I wasn't 100% sure what flash meant - I googled and found the definition... now it's clear as mud

As I said to dave - I think that down-climbing to the ground should not be allowed, just reversing some moves to a ledge etc.. should be allowed

BTW the onsight film should have been called 'Ground Up' or 'Onsight Attempts' - didn't seem to be much of it in it to me. Lots of falls going on there... 

[abarro81]

We're not talking eliminates at minus 10 or pinches wall here - there's a time and a place for arbitrary rules, and it aint' trad onsighting.

[dave]

As I said to dave - I think that down-climbing to the ground should not be allowed, just reversing some moves to a ledge etc.. should be allowed

but downclimbing to a ledge is no different. There's routes with ledges that are more spacious and comfy than the ground at the bottom of some routes!

[Tris]

We're not talking eliminates at minus 10 or pinches wall here - there's a time and a place for arbitrary rules, and it aint' trad onsighting.

Thank you for your useful comments.

[slackline]

As I said to dave - I think that down-climbing to the ground should not be allowed, just reversing some moves to a ledge etc.. should be allowed

See dave's point, but where are you going to draw your arbitrary line to say "Well you've downclimbed more than 10/20/30% of the route to the ground/ledge so thats not an Onsight"?  The basic premise of Onsight is no beta, getting to the top yourself without weighting the rope.  Simple eh?

BTW the onsight film should have been called 'Ground Up' or 'Onsight Attempts' - didn't seem to be much of it in it to me. Lots of falls going on there... 

True, but the point is that they were tyring to on-sight the routes, compare and contrast to Hard Grit and you'll see the difference.

[Bonjoy]

As I said to dave - I think that down-climbing to the ground should not be allowed, just reversing some moves to a ledge etc.. should be allowed

You’ve not thought this through have you? What if the ledge is six feet wide and one foot above the ground? What if the ledge tapers into the ground at one end? What if a hold you use mid-route widens out and tapers into the ground at one side? What if the pitch in question is half way up a multi-pitch?
There is no sensible way to apply this daft rule outside of an indoor competition environment.

[abarro81]

No need to get all sarcastic because I puntered you.
I can just see the scene now: half way up Fairhead, my mate leaves the belay, then realises he's fogotten to get the RPs off me. Of course, he's not allowed to reverse to the belay or he'll blow the onsight so he perches 1cm away from what might be defined as the belay ledge whilst I throw them to him. Phew! Onsight saved. Glad with bothered with that bollocks.
Or how about: I decide to reverse from a tricky section as I've worked out what to do but have got pumped. Of course I can't reverse to the ground, so I reverse to the spacious ledge a few inches off the ground and have my mate pass me a cup of tea whilst I depump. But it's a ledge so that's cool. Just don't slip whilst drinking the tea - if that foot touches the ground you've blown it!

[slackline]

@Tris : check  

[The Sausage]

Of course you can f#cking downclimb you morons!

[rginns]

 

Jesus, I thought I'd stumbled on cocktalk by mistake...

[Jaspersharpe]

Of course you can f#cking downclimb you morons!

Fixed. 

[SA Chris]

log pile?

[slackline]

Of course you can f#cking downclimb you morons!

Damn you Sharpe!

[Jaspersharpe]

40 seconds too slow!

[Tris]

Of course you can f#cking downclimb you morons!

Thanks for all your comments, I am not saying 'I think this so this is how it should be'.
As I said before, I wanted to get some views on this - and it is obvious down-climbing is accepted as part of an onsight ascent.
That's fine - I have my personal opinion which I'm entitled to (and it's obvious it's different to the majority of people).

There's no need to slag me off.. I am not a witch..

[slackline]

No one called you a witch, just a moron 

[Tris]

No one called you a witch, just a moron 

[Tris]

I apologise to everyone for talking about climbing related topics in the chuffing forum, it will not happen again...

[aly]

Whilst we're at it can we also outlaw matching, heelhooks and egyptians - so that only real climbers can claim the onsight?


Shitheap...?

[Jaspersharpe]

Mahogany jibs only for feet.

[Fiend]

It's bloody obvious.

Think about the intrisic qualities of the climbing (onsighting experience) rather than just the semantics of the ethical guidelines, and remember that the former dictates the latter, not vice-versa.

[ksjs]

  even if you dont touch the ground surely you reverse moves to get back to rest positions / re-assess etc? whats the difference between this and reversing to the ground?

[lagerstarfish]

You fool, Tris.

You should have gone to 8a.nu - where the real climbers go for all their information.

http://www.8a.nu/?IncPage=http%3A//web.8a.nu/articles/ShowArticle.aspx%3FArticleId%3D981

well reviewed here too

[Will Hunt]

Cheers for pointing that out Lager's. I can now go and make some quality routes like Ulysses Right Hand and Wizard Ridge and only have to deal with an "Ethical Dilemma" with the official backing of 8a.nu.

Create a new hold to
make a superb route possible. - Ethical Dilemma

   

[shark]

We're not talking eliminates at minus 10 or pinches wall here - there's a time and a place for arbitrary rules, and it aint' trad onsighting.

I've been unsettled by the (mis)use of the word arbitrary on this thread. All climbing ethics are arbitrary. I think. I've suddenly become confused between ethics and rules. Help.

Lagers ?