[ksjs]

http://web.8a.nu/articles/ShowArticle.aspx?ArticleId=981

suggests that pre-clipping (climbing, clipping, downclimbing to the ground) isnt quite right and i wondered what the general view on this practice is?

im talking a significant number of draws pre-clipped, not just 1 or 2 for saftey, so youre effectively on top rope for a good chunk of the route. also, you have as many redpoints as you want without repeating the downclimbing part.

is it totally normal, only acceptable at the highest level, down to the individual or plain wrong?

[Three Nine]

I would say on most routes its ok to have up to the first two bolts clipped (may vary with local ethics as with chain grabbing), unless its a three bolt route. If you climb up clip a high bolt then reverse to the ground without weighting the rope and then rest and go for it I think that's fine - just good tactics.

[abarro81]

 
BUT climbing up, clipping, climbing back down, then falling off onto the pre-clipped bolt but leaving it preclipped for the next attempt? No. To me that's cheating. As usual it's what matters to you, but if one of my mates was doing that i'd try to give them enough abuse about it to make it worth their while not to cheat again! If you blow the onsight do you just lower off and leave the rope in yo-yo style? Hell no

[Tim Broughtonshaw]

BUT climbing up, clipping, climbing back down, then falling off onto the pre-clipped bolt but leaving it preclipped for the next attempt? No. To me that's cheating. As usual it's what matters to you, but if one of my mates was doing that i'd try to give them enough abuse about it to make it worth their while not to cheat again! If you blow the onsight do you just lower off and leave the rope in yo-yo style? Hell no

No doubt about it that's not a valid ascent.  :spank:if you fall off. and then next time lead it with those bolts clipped, without having pulled the rope and only preclipped those ones valid for the route. 

Myself i normally only preclip the 1st if necessary. At some crags its necessary to preclip the 1st and possibly the second but i personally find this much less often.

[ksjs]

to Three Nine: i assume you mean 1 or 2 are ok on any route where safety is an issue and that pre-clipping (as many as you like) is ok as long as you re-do the downclimb part following a fall ie you cant climb, clip and downclimb then have as many unsucessful gos as you want with the rope still clipped?

to abarro81: agree totally but i have been told (unless i misunderstood) that as long as you do the climb, clip and downclimb part cleanly then you can have as many redpoint attempts (with the rope still clipped) as you like.

by the way the reason i ask isnt hypothetical.

[webbo]

isn't there some pearls of wisdom on this from big keith.
i can have it clipped because.
1 i can climb down from there
2 i could climb down from there
3 i know someone who climbed down from there.
4 it looks possible to climb down from there
5 its a shit route and i'm not bothered anyway.

or something along these lines.

[Jaspersharpe]

I've never heard of anyone redoing the downclimb. What a fuck about and how pointless. 

[abarro81]

the way i see it: a clean ascent involves starting from the bottom and climbing to the top without falling off, you can start with up to 2 bolts pre-clipped to keep your ankles safe, after all we need to save those so we can break them on trad route. Thus, downclimbing is all good - you got from the floor with 2 pre-clipped bolts up to the chains without falling off. If you fall and leave your rope in then you got from the floor with, let's say, 5 preclipped bolts, to the top without falling off. In my mind this is no better than getting your mate to preclip half the route for an onsight.
leaving a rope up after you've fallen off because 'i know i can get there and downclimb' is bullshit:
If it's so easy to get there and downclimb that it doesn't matter then you don't need to use that tactic.
If it's hard (presumably why you'd do this) then part of the challenge is that you have to do both parts in a row: the good part of applying the tactic is that it makes the redpoint easier; the trade off is that you have to go back up and put the rope in each time, so you have to decide if the tactic really is worth it. Otherwise i'd spend a day on a project just seeing how high i could get and climb down again, then start with the rope clipped in there each time - what a pile of shite.
who said it was legit?
Jaspersharpe: are you for real? you'd leave it clipped and claim the ascent?
P.S. In the same style, yes i do think Robin Barker cheated doing this with the cams on Marbellous.

[Three Nine]

BUT climbing up, clipping, climbing back down, then falling off onto the pre-clipped bolt but leaving it preclipped for the next attempt? No. To me that's cheating. As usual it's what matters to you, but if one of my mates was doing that i'd try to give them enough abuse about it to make it worth their while not to cheat again! If you blow the onsight do you just lower off and leave the rope in yo-yo style? Hell no

Ah, i didn't understand that was what was being suggested! Sounds like some a siege ascent... no that would be stupid - could end up in top-roping the route until the penultimate bolt...

[Paz]

AB I can't believe you're that bothered about this, I'd preclip as many as I felt like/ managed to keep in when I pulled the rope, it's only sport climbing FFS.  I'm generally thinking of low crux => use the botls, or easy ground low => doesn't fucking matter then.  Maybe this is a good opportunity to ask anyone writing a new guidebook to Peak Limestone to set the record straight about The Cornice for us though if people like you think this might blow your onsight of Monumental Armblaster...

Marbellous has been re done properly now by Gaskins mind, direct too, but there was always this idea about the Barker Point, with n-1 of n clips being pre clipped.  I think this was just because he used to be a cheedale fan, and noone else ever really clipped that many more than him there anyway.  On a lot of these routes if it's just not possible to clip and noone else ever clipped em then fuck it, are you going to use the bolts or are you going to try and make a name for yourself by introducing death runouts to the world of sport climbing?

[Falling Down]

I love threads like this

[Three Nine]

Paz - im going to look at a car tomorrow which looks ace so hopefully i'll buy it. If i do are you keen for Cheddar on mon or tues if its dried out, or elsewhere if not?

[ksjs]

to clarify, am talking about hard ascents and so yes, the style does matter: you cant just have as many preclipped draws as you want (especially if all youve done is pull the rope after a dogged ascent and managed to set up a top rope for the first x bolts). not having to make clips can totally change the nature of the climbing and grade. i think you cant therefore claim the same ascent as someone who has done the same route without pre-clipping.

also, if you are going to do the pre-clipping / downclimbing thing then surely you have to repeat the downclimb part if you fail on the redpoint attempt - you shouldnt be able to derive the advantage of having the rope pre-clipped but dont also have the disadvantage of a potentially strength sapping downclimb prior to an attempt.

i was just interested to know if there was a consensus on whats acceptable, it appears not.

[Paz]

Finally something important.  Yeah man, am dead keen for either/both days.  could turn into a Brean trip, but nowt wrong with that. 

ksjs - bleedin hell, people will be criticising the use of recreational drugs on high end sport routes next. 

[ksjs]

ksjs - bleedin hell, people will be criticising the use of recreational drugs on high end sport routes next. 

this preclipping thing came as total news to me hence my post; am now slightly disillusioned / sceptical but i wont be claiming dubious ascents (though i can see that if 1 person is doing it and its "ok" then why wouldnt you, i suppose as long as youre up front about the style than thats the main thing...)

[Three Nine]

Finally something important.  Yeah man, am dead keen for either/both days.  could turn into a Brean trip, but nowt wrong with that. 

ksjs - bleedin hell, people will be criticising the use of recreational drugs on high end sport routes next. 

Paz - I now have a car! Not sure what plans are at the moment, watching the weather, will give you a shout. Am sacking work for Christmas now I think so v keen in the next few weeks for getting out...

[Paz]

Monday and Tuesday still look good don't they?  Crag'll be piss wet, but something'll be good.

Now then everyone.  Look here this is a classic example of a preclipping ethical indiscretion: 

http://slackjaw.co.uk/latest/latest.html

Scroll down the bottom and watch the video of Seraphim. 

Ru, you should be ashamed of yourslef!  If you are going to preclip a bolt then you should be well aware that it's best to use a screw gate. 

[account_inactive]

Has nobody ever been to the Tor?  WTF

[abarro81]

may vary with local ethics

[Ru]

Ru, you should be ashamed of yourslef!  If you are going to preclip a bolt then you should be well aware that it's best to use a screw gate. 

I did the down-climb first.

[Stubbs]

you shouldnt be able to derive the advantage of having the rope pre-clipped but dont also have the disadvantage of a potentially strength sapping downclimb prior to an attempt.

 
What's to stop you doing the downclimb, untying, going to the pub, going for a kip, coming back the next day, warming up and then redpointing the route - would this still be legitiamte in your eyes?

[ksjs]

no, i dont think thats ok as youve broken the climb with warming up on day 2; if this tactic is used then i think you have to do the downclimb part each time and the ascent must be 'unbroken'. if not then the logical extension is that you can fall anywhere on a route (without having done any downclimbing) and leave the rope preclipped up to that point for subsequent attempts as arguably you "know" you can climb clean to that point - there is no difference here, its just that in the 'legitimate' version youre spending a bit of time on the ground (the same as a mid-route ledge for example); if you fail having used the downclimb tactic im sorry but you should have to the whole thing again to claim a clean ascent.

[abarro81]

pretty dodgy but i'd let you have that, as you've still had to do the 2 things in a row without falling off each one..

[andy popp]

There is some awesome fuckwittedness on this thread.

[GCW]

As someone who doesn't do Sport, I've been reading this with great amusement