[tomtom]

Go with what you like and can afford.  Handle the Nikon you're considering buying too.
What dave said!

Keeping things vaguely on topic (although just musing about future purchases)...I'd been toying with the idea of upgrading my body to the D300(s) this year (fed up with crap grainy images at high ISO and built-in sensor cleaning is very appealing), but reading around I think I'm going to stick with the entry level as the D90 seems just as good in terms of quality, and all you're paying for with the D300 is a magnesium body and marginally better sealing which just adds weight.

D90 is tempting, but at £760+ for the 18-105 (which seems to be most places package) feels just a bit rich for me...

[dave]

You can get D90s second hand for £500ish or less. Seems like a lot of camera for the money.

[Tris]

I'd been toying with the idea of upgrading my body to the D300(s) this year

I just had a quick gander at camerapricebuster, can anyone explain why the D300 is £100 more than the D300s? Doesn't make sense to me...

[slackline]

D90 body on its own from £620

The price of the kit lens is at best ~£200

So the bundle saves a few pennies.

The D90 has the same technology as the D300 but significantly less (apparently).

That said you should spend most of your money on lenses as you'll upgrade your body when the technology advances in a few years anyway.

[Tris]

Unless you buy the 18-55 kit lens for £90...

[slackline]

Unless you buy the 18-55 kit lens for £90...

Not much point IMO, quite restrictive and you'd want a better lens anyway.

A good all-rounder (in my limited experience/knowledge) is the 18-200mm f/3.5-5.6G VR before getting stuck into more specific/pricier kit, but that with the body will bump the cost up to > £1k.

[tomtom]

I liked the 10-20mm...   

But figured I may as well get a cheaper body to start with...

[dave]

Slackers is right though, you're better off with a good lens on a cheap body than the other way round. Those 18-55 lenses look cheap but they don't hold resale value well, so thats £90 you'll probably never see most of again. On the other hand a good prime or zoom will either keep its value or even earn you money. When i bought my D70 i paid the £80 extra or whatever it was to get the 18-70mm kit lens. Last year I part-exd it in for the value of £150.

[slackline]

I liked the 10-20mm...   

But figured I may as well get a cheaper body to start with...

I like the (Sigma) 10-20mm too 




(Still not really made the most of it yet though, need more practice, hopefully get some this weekend in Scotland  ).

[JamesD]

D90 body on its own from £620

The price of the kit lens is at best ~£200

So the bundle saves a few pennies.

The D90 has the same technology as the D300 but significantly less (apparently).

That said you should spend most of your money on lenses as you'll upgrade your body when the technology advances in a few years anyway.

The D90 uses the same sensor and internals as the D300S, it actually has better image quality than a D300, slightly sharper and better Signal to noise ratio.
If you're a pro its worth spending the extra for the D300/D300S as you get a super durable pro quality body plus features such as manually changable WB/ISO/Shooting modes/file recording etc on the camera as opposed to in menu's which makes the camera much faster to operate for wedding/event/press use when every second counts, if you're not, or you don't need silly strong durability, just get the D90, its a bargain for what it is, best crop size sensor SLR out there at the moment IMO, I say this owning a D300 and a D300S and having used a D90 on a few occasions.

I would however avoid using a D3, D3s or a D3X, until you have the funds to purchase one.
As the superiority of the image quality over crop size sensors (especially at high ISO's) will make you cry yourself to sleep at night until you have one of your own to hug and cherish.

[JamesD]

Love that second shot Slack line, real beauty, nice sunset

[JamesD]

Oh and if the price of decent zooms put you off, a couple of cheap primes will give you waaaaaaaaaaaay better image quality than some of those shoddy kit lenses you get, plus....as the guys before me said, if/when you come to sell them, they don't tend to lose much of their initial sale value unless you damage them significantly.

[slackline]

I would however avoid using a D3, D3s or a D3X, until you have the funds to purchase one.
As the superiority of the image quality over crop size sensors (especially at high ISO's) will make you cry yourself to sleep at night until you have one of your own to hug and cherish.

The D700 is full-frame and pretty good at low light.  Some pics from the same friend who owns the tilt-shift lens taken at a burlesque night with really shit light conditions using the D700...

f/1.4 @ ISO 1800

f/1.4 @ ISO 1100

f/1.4 @ ISO 2200

Love that second shot Slack line, real beauty, nice sunset

Cheers, t'is sunrise though from Cala Gonone on the east coast of Sardinia, only day I dragged my sorry arse out of bed and down to the coast for sunrise so was quite pleased to have a nice light show.

[JamesD]

Ah yeah I forgot the D700, its pretty much a D300 with a D3 sensor, great if you desperately want a FF Nikon body, as you get D3 image quality for less money, but i'd hang out for the D3 to drop in price a little longer, that is if they don't all get snapped up sharpish as appears to be happening right now!
The one thing that put me off ever getting a D700 was the weight of the things, I need the battery life of 2 little batterys, (or one pro size battery) and prefer the ergonomics with a grip for long days at events or weddings.
For commercial work and portraiture it doesn't really matter so much,
(I would usually hire in a D3X for most stuff, or something nicer if the job demands it).... but add a grip plus an extra battery to a D700 makes it heavier than a D3, and a struggle to fit into my thinktank holster, so that pretty much discounted me ever purchasing one for my usage.

[Tris]

I liked the 10-20mm...   

But figured I may as well get a cheaper body to start with...

I like the (Sigma) 10-20mm too 

It's a nice lens, but the Tokina 11-16mm blows it out of the water

Tom - let me know if you want to play with some lenses, I have a fair collection now  I can borrow the D40 off the missus so you can see some nice glass on a cheap body...

[slackline]

I liked the 10-20mm...   

But figured I may as well get a cheaper body to start with...

I like the (Sigma) 10-20mm too 

It's a nice lens, but the Tokina 11-16mm blows it out of the water

  chances of me buying another lens to cover this range....zero (unless I fuck mine up!).

[tomtom]

Cool - that'd be neat... Probably heading to the wall on Sunday afternoon again if you're about?

Working on the lenses last for ages bodys need replacing every few years logic.. as a beginner, is there any point in me getting something better than the entry d3000? May as well save my spondoolies for nicer lenses?? Will I actually get much more out of the expensive body? Bear in mind its mainly (nearly all) going to be climbing/landscape/family occasion type shots..?
Good advice btw - thanks everyone...

[dave]

Depends really. if you're a genuine beginner then by the time you outgrow a basic body it might coincide with when you fancy upgrading anyway. The main things the basic nikon bodies (D60/60/3000000 etc) lack is the ability to control a nikon flash off-camera, the ability to focus non-AFS lenses mainly, plus generally less buttons etc. The flash issue isn't a worry if you haven't got or don't plan to buy an SB600/800/900, and there are other ways to use off-camera flash anyway. The AFS lens thing means you're limited to very new or zoom lenses - they make those bodies aiming at the marketplace of the guy who will probably buy a cheap wide zoom and a long zoom and thats it, maybe with a 35mm f/1.8 if he's feeling fruity.

When used in the right hands in decent light though they will churn out identical shots as the same lens on a D90/D300 or whatever. The other plus side is you get a very small handy light camera. Although you'll find less dedicated buttons the usability might actually be better in some respects in menus etc than the more expensive models, since they bring out a DX class pro body, then base the Dx00 class body on that, then tweak any glitches in the Dx0 prosumer body with the same sensor, then do the same again with the Dx000 consumer body with the same guts. So the Dx000s are actually pretty well evolved down the development chain compared to the ££££££ bleeding-edge Dx models.

[tomtom]

Well, I was about to click on a D5000, then I had another snoop at the 'spare' lens at work (that I could snaffle), and its a sigma 14mm F3.5 - which is not an AFS... AND nikon have just announced £60 sheets cashback on D90's.. so I'm watching for a low price on the D90 18-105 combo... (D90 will AF the earlier lenses yes?)
T

[Tris]

Well, I was about to click on a D5000, then I had another snoop at the 'spare' lens at work (that I could snaffle), and its a sigma 14mm F3.5 - which is not an AFS... AND nikon have just announced £60 sheets cashback on D90's.. so I'm watching for a low price on the D90 18-105 combo... (D90 will AF the earlier lenses yes?)
T

Sounds like a good plan to me. Yes the D90 will autofocus with most lenses just not the older AI/AI-S ones (not too much of a show stopper - the good AI-S lenses go for mental prices on Ebay )

Ken Rockwell's table is useful - I have used it a few times to check compatibility...

[dave]

Well, I was about to click on a D5000, then I had another snoop at the 'spare' lens at work (that I could snaffle), and its a sigma 14mm F3.5 - which is not an AFS... AND nikon have just announced £60 sheets cashback on D90's.. so I'm watching for a low price on the D90 18-105 combo... (D90 will AF the earlier lenses yes?)
T

The D5000000 won't focus the sigma if it hasn't got sigma's af-S equivalent motor in the lens. However 14mm is so wide that manually focussing won't be a problem, you'll have so much depth of field at middle apertures that you would be able to guess focus most of the time anyway.

[tomtom]

Just spotted this deal, D90 with a Sigma 18-50mm F2.5>4.5 (£700 pre £60 rebate) that looked a bit different from the 'stock' deals with the Nikon 18-55 - and cheaper too... Not really sure I'd want the length (focal and size) of the 18-105 that seems to come bundled with the D90 mostly...

http://www.cameraworld.co.uk/ViewProdDetails.asp?prod_code=PON09L000042&Cat_Code=28&Subcat_Code=175&MANU_CODE=1&Minisitetype=

Any thoughts/oppinions on this? (I am going to stop asking questions and buy something soon honest!)

[Johnny Brown]

Sounds ok. Other price options here.

The VR of the Nikon lens would be useful, but don't feel a Nikon lens is a necessity. Be worth seeing what's the best price for a kit with the Nikon 16-85 first though.

[JamesD]

I would get the body only and buy a couple of decent cheaper Nikon primes, they will offer better optical performance than any zooms in a similar price range, pretty much all the cheaper zooms are wank IMO.

I wouldn't touch Sigma personally, having owned and sold several of them, I am pretty obsessive when it comes to lens image quality though.....I would recommend you stick with Nikon or Tokina and you can't go wrong, Nikon having first preference for most stuff though, generally speaking.

I think you would have a lot more fun with a D90 and one of these:

http://www.warehouseexpress.com/buy-nikon-50mm-f1-4-d-af-lens/p12868

Plus one of these:

http://www.warehouseexpress.com/buy-nikon-28mm-f2-8-d-af-lens/p12875

Than you would with one of those awful sigma zooms or the cheaper Nikon zooms (which suck too!).

IMO you would need to spend 400-500+ to get yourself a Nikon zoom that would outperform or even come close to equalling either of these two in terms of optics, really good value for money, plus awesome low light performane

[Tris]

I would get the body only and buy a couple of decent cheaper Nikon primes, they will offer better optical performance than any zooms in a similar price range, pretty much all the cheaper zooms are wank IMO.

I wouldn't touch Sigma personally, having owned and sold several of them, I am pretty obsessive when it comes to lens image quality though.....I would recommend you stick with Nikon or Tokina and you can't go wrong, Nikon having first preference for most stuff though, generally speaking.

I think you would have a lot more fun with a D90 and one of these:

http://www.warehouseexpress.com/buy-nikon-50mm-f1-4-d-af-lens/p12868

Agree with most of what you said... buying Sigma is a lottery (as someone said on another thread).
But the 50mm f1.8 is less than half the price. I'm pretty sure Tom is trying to be conservative on the price?

If I were you Tom, I would just get the Nikon 18-105 to start with. It suits your needs and if you want to replace/upgrade it later and buy primes instead/as well you will get a good resale price.