[Grubes]

much better from England today
half century for cook and trott and 100 partnership. 129/1 sounds like strauss went a bit easily but not seen the footage. Lets hope they can push on a get a decent score for pakistan to try and chase.

[Grubes]

wanted middle order battsmen
 

[butters]

The Pakistan team looked all at sea till they got Trott out - as soon as he went they could get men around the bat and make life a lot more difficult for the new batsman. We need to match their first innings score at a bare minimum to just stand a hope in hell of getting something out of this test at the minute

[butters]

Well that went well didn't it - bowled out for 72 chasing a total of 145 to win. I said to a mate at work that I would accept losing the series to Pakistan with the caveat that we actually learnt how to play spin bowling - well we have lost the series and still have no clue what we are doing against spinners that are OK but not a lot more than that!

Next test? Morgan has to go as he has proved that he is not a test player in this series (and hasn't done much in the previous either IIRC) but in all honesty you could drop just about anyone from the top six on the performance served up today. Not looking forward to the Sri Lanka series... 

[rich d]

Another sub-continent poor performance from the batting, I though we balled well and fielded very well. Our higher order batsmen proved yet again that they can't handle the conditions (even in the pretend subcontinent) but that they really can't cope with decent spinners. My solution let the batsmen play a few innings against swann and monty.

[ksjs]

Glad to see England beaten, again; A) because it's Pakistan who have had such a hard time of late (some of which has been self-imposed admittedly) and B) because I'm sick of the whole "This is the best England side ever.", "They are the best in the world thing." etc.

Nice to see this after their drubbing at the hands of India. A return to the correct order.

They've had the rub of the green for so long now in terms of decisions, weather, under-prepared sides, weakened teams, low ranking opponents, opposition batting line-ups capitulating (and no, that's not a sign of English greatness, it was simply some kind of strange anomaly), sight screens aiding English bowlers etc. This is not to mention their extensive use of foreigners, they are the Chelsea / Arsenal of the Test world, how embarrassing.

They have improved and put in some impressive performances but they are not THAT good and are not world number ones.

[rich d]

I think they probably are overall the world's number one test nation. Part of that is the current transitional status of Australia and the Windies disappearing as a credible force. This combined with India and Pakistan focussing on 2020 has allowed England to become world's number one. They obviously aren't dominant as some side's have been previously in the number one slot,  but that doesn't mean they aren't number one. It also doesn't mean they are the best England side ever - as Beefy's not playing and Sir Geoff isn't opening.

 

[danm]

I can't believe they blew it. Monty and Broad, who bowled particularly well, must be gutted after setting up the win. They must drop Pieterson and Morgan on this showing, and Strauss and Bell must be on last warning. When your best batsmen are your wicketkeeper and a bowler, you need to start dropping the dead wood.

[butters]

Glad to see England beaten, again; A) because it's Pakistan who have had such a hard time of late (some of which has been self-imposed admittedly) and B) because I'm sick of the whole "This is the best England side ever.", "They are the best in the world thing." etc.

Nice to see this after their drubbing at the hands of India. A return to the correct order.

They've had the rub of the green for so long now in terms of decisions, weather, under-prepared sides, weakened teams, low ranking opponents, opposition batting line-ups capitulating (and no, that's not a sign of English greatness, it was simply some kind of strange anomaly), sight screens aiding English bowlers etc. This is not to mention their extensive use of foreigners, they are the Chelsea / Arsenal of the Test world, how embarrassing.

They have improved and put in some impressive performances but they are not THAT good and are not world number ones.

The thing that people always miss out on when the say that this is "The best England cricket team ever" is the word prepared - there was a really good article in cricinfo that made this point that I can not find but this article makes pretty much the same points.

Regarding being the best in the world - well they are according to the Test rankings. In part been helped by the fact that they haven't played on the sub continent for a long time and also because the other teams that they have played against are\were in a state of decline but you can only beat what is put before you.

Under prepared sides - that is one area where England have improved markedly over the years. They actually play some quality teams prior to competing in Tests these days (the last Ashes tour down under especially) so they are not going in half cooked - if the opposition fail to prepare properly then how is that Englands fault?

Opposition sides collapsing? The England bowlers are a very effective collective - there isn't the feeling that it is a battle to see how many wickets an individual can take in a Test these days. They go in with the intention of taking 10 wickets per innings together and build pressure on the opposition (as Pakistan did in the second innings yesterday).

With regard to foreigners playing for England - that's nothing new as it has been going on for years - Graeme Hick, Robin Smith are the two that spring to mind immediately but there has been a whole host of others adopted by England over the years and been largely unsuccessful.

In summary - best in the world? Yes they are at the minute but they have some serious examinations coming up in the next 12 months. The conclusion of the series against Pakistan, away to Sri Lanka, Windies at home followed by South Africa and then a tour of India. If they are still number one after that (I have a few doubts to be honest) then they will have proven beyond all doubt that they deserve the mantle  "best England side ever."

[ksjs]

The thing that people always miss out on when the say that this is "The best England cricket team ever" is the word prepared

Fair enough, but doggedness and professionalism for me does not equate to greatness. It's rather English actually and that is part of what I dislike; I mean Ashley Giles, how negative does it get? A few years ago but you you get my drift.

Regarding being the best in the world...the other teams that they have played against are\were in a state of decline but you can only beat what is put before you.

Exactly; I'm not the best / greatest climber in the world if I can climb V5 but everyone else climbs V0. OK, I might be, on current form. In an historical context however I'm not. I'd love to see them against 80s / 90s WI and Border / Warne era Australia. I doubt they (or rather the media) would be so self-satisfied then.

if the opposition fail to prepare properly then how is that Englands fault?

It's not England's fault. But the money grubbing freaks at the ICC, who seem blatantly unaware of the fact that money isn't the be all and end all and that quality counts, are apparently unable to schedule the international calendar such that teams e.g. West Indies and Bangladesh don't turn up in the UK and freeze their nuts off in April. Is it any surprise the visitors look so uninspired; Jamaica vs Arundel, hmm?

Opposition sides collapsing?

I was referring here to what seemed to happen in some Tests, especially against Australia but also SA to an extent. A top 5/6 each averaging 50+ yet in consecutive matches / innings nobody was even getting their average save perhaps Mr Hussey when the Aussies were last here. OK, I'm being really disingenuous here but it was statistically strange that they performed so poorly for a relatively long period. This happened to be against England.

With regard to foreigners playing for England - that's nothing new as it has been going on for years

Come on! It seems to have got worse of late. Take out Trott, Pietersen and Morgan (who is defiantly not a Test player) and that's quite a chunk of their line-up.

In summary - best in the world? Yes they are at the minute

No, I have to disagree. Their 'reign' will be short-lived. SA and Aus (not mention Pakistan) would beat them on current form. I think they stand to lose their #1 ranking if they lose this series 2 or 3-0 and SA whitewash NZ in their imminent series. Any side claiming to be #1 should be 'certain' of their future status, England can't be. Any side claiming to be #1 should not be so regularly embarrassed in ODIs. Different format but it seems that regardless of all the bollocks talked and improvisations on display, the best are best, regardless of match type.

I am absolutely confident that England will not retain their #1 status for long. They've benefited from lots of things, things they had no control over. That won't last.

[Plattsy]

Any side claiming to be #1 should be 'certain' of their future status, England can't be. Any side claiming to be #1 should not be so regularly embarrassed in ODIs.

So the ICC have their rankings wrong. Their rankings should also include ODIs and future test results?
http://icc-cricket.yahoo.net/

[Plattsy]

Just noticed we're the best ranked T20 team. If we're best in 2 out of the 3 disciplines that makes Australia better than us right?
 

[butters]

Just noticed we're the best ranked T20 team. If we're best in 2 out of the 3 disciplines that makes Australia better than us right?
 

I was going to get into a long and elaborate reply to ksjs but you have saved me the time. 

[ksjs]

Just noticed we're the best ranked T20 team. If we're best in 2 out of the 3 disciplines that makes Australia better than us right?
 

Suggesting something is truly great is, if you remove all the hyperbole, exaggeration, soundbites and disregard for genuine quality that seems to permeate most areas of life today (sport, media, business etc), a fairly significant thing.

The Test rankings may say England are #1 but for the reasons I've given they aren't actually that good and they're certainly not 'great'. Being #1 in T20 says quite a bit actually, if there's any arena where bit players can excel it's T20. I think most would accept that ability in ODI is a far fairer marker of genuine cricketing ability than T20. Here England - apparently a great side - regularly get beaten. Not just beaten mind you, annihilated.

[Jaspersharpe]

So the ICC have their rankings wrong. Their rankings should also include ODIs and future test results?
http://icc-cricket.yahoo.net/

Not just that it seems! The test rankings should be inversely affected by how high up the rankings the T20 team is.

 

Fuck's sake ksjs. Nobody's saying that England are a great side in comparison to some past sides mentioned but the FACT that they are the number one ranked test side in the world at the moment is just that.

Quite why you're so bitter about it isn't clear.

[butters]

Suggesting something is truly great is, if you remove all the hyperbole, exaggeration, soundbites and disregard for genuine quality that seems to permeate most areas of life today (sport, media, business etc), a fairly significant thing.

The Test rankings may say England are #1 but for the reasons I've given they aren't actually that good and they're certainly not 'great'. Being #1 in T20 says quite a bit actually, if there's any arena where bit players can excel it's T20. I think most would accept that ability in ODI is a far fairer marker of genuine cricketing ability than T20. Here England - apparently a great side - regularly get beaten. Not just beaten mind you, annihilated.

From my viewpoint (somewhat biased but I remember England and cricket in the '90's  ) the only people who are calling England a "great cricket team" are those with a fuck-all of knowledge on the matter (or the general press to put it another way). Those in the press who have actually played cricket or who know something about it have always accepted that this was going to be the start of a very serious examination of just how good this England team are - an examination that is not going well so far I hasten to add.

With regard to Test cricket compared to ODI's or Twenty/20 - one form has very little relevance to the other - you are trying to compare apples with pears with oranges or to put it into simplistic climbing terms you are trying to compare trad to sport to bouldering.

To echo Jasper here I really am not sure what point you are trying to get across.

[BB]

Any side claiming to be #1 should be 'certain' of their future status, England can't be

I think what ksjs is saying is that in a minority report style, the ICC should look into the future and base their ranking on how good a team 'might' be in the future.

Of course that adds the additional problem that knowing the future could then influence the present, thereby nullifying the prediction and ultimately rendering the the future unknowable and undeterminable. Oh, and destroying the the universe by creating a quantum paradox.

[Plattsy]

Those in the press who have actually played cricket or who know something about it have always accepted that this was going to be the start of a very serious examination of just how good this England team are - an examination that is not going well so far I hasten to add.

I agree and how this England team comes back from this defeat will be a show of character and ability. With the Windies next it is looking likely towards the end of the summer it'll be #1 v #2 in the world again when SA arrive. By the end of the summer we'll know how good this England team is. Should be a great series.

[tomtom]

Any side claiming to be #1 should be 'certain' of their future status, England can't be

I think what ksjs is saying is that in a minority report style, the ICC should look into the future and base their ranking on how good a team 'might' be in the future.

Of course that adds the additional problem that knowing the future could then influence the present, thereby nullifying the prediction and ultimately rendering the the future unknowable and undeterminable. Oh, and destroying the the universe by creating a quantum paradox.

:D

[ksjs]

Quite why you're so bitter about it isn't clear.

Well, I'm not English but I'm not bitter either. I'd just like some perspective and I'd like the media to shut up about quite how good this side is. Number one yes but for how long? A short spell there is not the mark of a truly great team, this is what some would have us believe they are.

[ksjs]

To echo Jasper here I really am not sure what point you are trying to get across.

Maybe I'm just venting a bit; certainly the posts on here seem to based in reality rather than this notion that they are great. Maybe also I'm a bit incredulous about the quality some players have attributed to them. I just don't see it and the #1 status thing only adds to this.

[rich d]

Put it into perspective then ksjs and tell us where you're from/where your allegiances lie.
Rich

[Richie Crouch]

Got tickets to the 20 20 at the MCG tonight... Now where did I put my India shirt!

Just hoping for a miracle and that Australia don't continue to steamroller them in very game 

then after the beach on sat it will be back to the mcg for the 1 dayer 

[Grubes]

 
Bowlers have a great day all out for 99 and every bowler taking wickets.

England 12 for 2 after 7 overs. cook and trott gone (trott would still be there if he referred)
Morgan not dropped
 

[butters]

Here we go again - England's bowlers have put them into a position of potential control by bowling out Pakistan for 99 only for the batsmen to do their best to throw it all away. 

Interesting point made on TMS today was that the introduction of DRS has radically changed what the umpires are prepared to give out regarding LBW. Prior to it being introduced you could get the big forward stride in and play for the benefit of the doubt but (as has been proven comprehensively in this series) that is no longer the case. I suppose it is another period of evolution in the great game and that the batsmen are going to have to figure out a way of playing in such a way as to negate this latest development but that isn't going to happen overnight. As an aside I wonder how the South Africans or the Aussies who, like England, are more used to playing on a quicker bouncier type of wicket would cope had they been playing Pakistan in this series.

The one good thing that has come out of this series is England playing two spinners - whether that would have been the case had Tremlett not gotten injured and flown home is open to debate but sometimes these things are a blessing in disguise. Let's hope that this will be carried on into the next two away series as well.