[benpritch]

oh and it's ramsey, not lennon.

[Adam Lincoln]

please point me towards this video - they didn't do a replay during the match

Here you go Ben. Warning though, anyone who is feint hearted, don't watch!

[robertostallioni]

The still image you show is actually after contact has been made, not before. Note the position of the ball. Shawcross has made contact and Ramsey has "bounced away".



 Intent is hard to prove one way or the other. As I said previously, part of me would always like see the offender given the same length ban as the injured party, But this could and probably should never happen, as I said above, intent is hard to prove.

[Richie Crouch]

Terrible weekend for FF and the mancs go and win the cup too 

[nai]

The still image you show is actually after contact has been made, not before. Note the position of the ball. Shawcross has made contact and Ramsey has "bounced away".

I'm not sure about that Rob, if you watch the video clip back by pausing and playing, at 4s you'll see both players go in with their kicking legs in a backlift position, Ramsey gets to the ball first and it pings away, then following the challenge Ramsey's momentum takes him forward so the two players come to rest a way apart.  It's too ast and too distant to tell definitively but it doesn't look malicious to me just a hard 50:50.

On a brighter note, looking at the top 3s remaining fixtures I quite fancy Arsenal to go on, they've just two potentially tricky matches while Manu and chelski have four.  Of course you can't predict how those struggling at the bottom will react but it should be exciting at least.

[Falling Down]

Terrible weekend for FF and the TWATS go and win the cup too 

[benpritch]

The still image you show is actually after contact has been made, not before. Note the position of the ball. Shawcross has made contact and Ramsey has "bounced away".

I'm not sure about that Rob, if you watch the video clip back by pausing and playing, at 4s you'll see both players go in with their kicking legs in a backlift position, Ramsey gets to the ball first and it pings away, then following the challenge Ramsey's momentum takes him forward so the two players come to rest a way apart.  It's too ast and too distant to tell definitively but it doesn't look malicious to me just a hard 50:50.

quite frankly it is irrelevant if he intended to hurt him or not. stoke and teams of their ilk go out out impose themselves on teams physically so inevitably there will be casualties. with pressure on  managers to produce results with their limited means (and apologists in the press) of course players will go into tackles late and with too much force.

[Teaboy]

I agree with Ben, all this about 'no one going out deliberately hurt players' is just bullshit. Sure, I don't doubt that Stoke don't want to permanently cripple players in the same way that armed robbers don't want to kill bank staff but you can't be surprised if it happens if that's the way you go about your business - on the eve of the match Fuller was talking about roughing up Arsenal. Likewise, I'm sure Shawcross is a nice lad in the same way armed robbers are always 'good to their mums'. I've just watched a youtube clip of him repeatedly hacking Adebayor until he had to go off injured (Adebayor, obviously).

The media seem intent on painting Wenger the bad guy in all this (cf. Taylor-Eduardo), I wonder if they'd do the same if it was Good Old Harry or Sir Rednose's teams on the receiving end of injuries like this.

[Jaspersharpe]

 

Bolton are the same. Their entire gameplan the last time I saw them play Arsenal was "let's try to injure Fabregas". Even my Bolton supporting mate agreed.

I don't think for one second that Shawcross went into that challenge intending to break Ramsey's leg but if you fire enough arrows etc.

[benpritch]

shawcross has form - shock. totally unbiassed video from a gooner but still interesting.

[benpritch]

late late late. this has left me in no doubt it was intentional.

[Norton Sharley]

I'm not trying to defend Shawcross.  I don't think previous form should affect a reviewing panels decision regarding a single challenge.  I do think it was a 50:50 ball.  I do think that in nicking the ball off Shawcross's foot Ramsey has made the situation worse than it could have been.  I do think that Shawcross was going in way too heavy - had Ramsey not been there that ball was heading for row Z.  I do think that in a contest between the physically lightweight Ramsey and heavyweight Shawcross there would only be one winner.  If Ramsey had played sufficient Sunday league football he would have known to jump the tackle not nick the ball off the other player's foot.  Does that make the challenge right and Ramsey wrong? No.  Do I expect Premier League players to play Sunday league football to learn to avoid bad challenges?  No.  Does all of this make it Shawcross's fault?  No.  By the time Ramsey nicked the ball Shawcross was committed to swinging his foot.  Ramsey went over on his right foot as he played the ball, this can't have helped.  It was a bad challenge in that the likely force of the tackle was excessive but I don't believe that is against the laws of the game.

I have great sympathy for Ramsey primarily and also for Arsenal but if you will play attractive, fast, skillful football then sometimes you are going to move the ball away before the slower less skillful player has realised and it is going to result in bad challenges that were not intentional.  Some less skillful teams will resort to roughing you up too, within the bounds of the game.  The laws of the game are there to protect your players and should be properly applied.  If there was real intent then shouldn't Arsenal / Ramsey be talking to the police about assault but where would this get football?

I just hope Arsenal go on to win the League and Ramsey makes a full recovery.

[benpritch]

I do think that Shawcross was going in way too heavy

is what i am saying ffs. these teams are programmed to 'get up in arsenals faces' and this is the product of that attitude.

[Jaspersharpe]

In short, the very best that Portsmouth can hope for is to still exist next season and that's a long shot.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/football/2010/mar/02/portsmouth-need-7m-march

What a total and utter shambles.

[meatball]

not meaning to question intent/lateness of the shawcross challenge, does it not look like ramsey' leg is at a odd angle before the challenge has gone in? around 28 secs from bens youtube post

[Jaspersharpe]

Re the Portsmouth article.......

and it was revealed that the club's assets exceed its liablities by £65m

Think the Grauniad may have got that one wrong!

[Sloper]

Yeah the lefty is so adept at all things financial you have today Michael meacher advising that we should be spending more on public services not less, because that's the only way to get the economy going.

Indeed, anyway back on topic apparently UEFA have said that from 2013 if you're more than x in debt than you're not playing in the champions league!  Now that would be interesting as if I heard correctly of the 'big four' only Arsenal would meet the criteria!

[tomtom]

Yeah the lefty is so adept at all things financial you have today Michael meacher advising that we should be spending more on public services not less, because that's the only way to get the economy going.

Indeed, anyway back on topic apparently UEFA have said that from 2013 if you're more than x in debt than you're not playing in the champions league!  Now that would be interesting as if I heard correctly of the 'big four' only Arsenal would meet the criteria!

And Chelskiii... (though I think instead of giving the money Abramovich has it as interest free loans etc..)

[Jaspersharpe]

Meaning they ARE in debt. Abramovich's loans are repayable within 18 months if he ever decides to bail out. He's only converted half the £500m or so he originally put in into shares meaning there's still huge exposure there.

[tomtom]

Just read the pompey article in the Guardian... sounds like a right state of affairs...
£86 million in debt, Squad valuation could only be £21 million... links between the administrator and the owner...
No wonder HMRC are getting twitchy - that and administration means they're dumped down the list.

So the club is worth -£65 million. Assuming they sold all their players, and somehow remained in the PL (maybe acrapi could help!) that would take c.2.5 seasons of PL payments and ticket reciepts - with NO wages being paid to players..

I think your earlier statement about them surviving as a club is very apt J.

[Jaspersharpe]

Not sure they'll make it to the end of the season now. It'll need a miracle. Could cause some changes in the table if so.
 

[tomtom]

Not sure they'll make it to the end of the season now. It'll need a miracle. Could cause some changes in the table if so.
 

Yup - could cause some changes at the top - and (more importantly!) the bottom... 

edit - its discussed here - though from a few weeks back... http://www.mirrorfootball.co.uk/news/Portsmouth-winding-up-order-How-the-Premier-League-table-would-look-if-Pompey-went-bust-Liverpool-would-go-third-and-West-Ham-would-be-bottom-article319595.html

[Norton Sharley]

I do think that Shawcross was going in way too heavy

is what i am saying ffs. these teams are programmed to 'get up in arsenals faces' and this is the product of that attitude.

Can we settle on Shawcross going in too heavy but without intent and Ramsey had already rolled over on his ankle which made it worse and should probably have had the sense to get out of the way anyway and Arsenal are a victimised bunch of softies?   

[benpritch]

I do think that Shawcross was going in way too heavy

is what i am saying ffs. these teams are programmed to 'get up in arsenals faces' and this is the product of that attitude.

Can we settle on Shawcross going in too heavy but without intent and Ramsey had already rolled over on his ankle which made it worse and should probably have had the sense to get out of the way anyway and Arsenal are a victimised bunch of softies?   

i think we agree, i just feel angry about it.

[Jaspersharpe]

Gracious as ever......