[john horscroft]

Like it says.  A few times over the last few days I've heard MP's, including tories, saying they went into parliament to make a difference, like they were on some great mission.  So, tory idealist, an oxymoron?

jh

[Fiend]

"john horscroft" is a funny mispelling of "Sloper"  ???

[andy popp]

So, tory idealist, an oxymoron?

No, of course not. Why on earth would you think it was?

[BenF]

I'm sure there are plenty of tory idealists, it's just that they can have some funny ideas about what constitutes "ideal".  In my opinion of course.

[Sloper]

If you plot the course of many in the Cabinet they've shifted from various positions on the hard left to positions to the right of the traditional one nation Conservatives; are they idealists?

[BenF]

If you plot the course of many in the Cabinet they've shifted from various positions on the hard left to positions to the right of the traditional one nation Conservatives; are they idealists?

I've not been particularly impressed with the ideals of many in the Labour party either.  They clearly seem to change over time anyway.

Come on Billy Bragg, stand for election.   

[andy popp]

If you plot the course of many in the Cabinet they've shifted from various positions on the hard left to positions to the right of the traditional one nation Conservatives; are they idealists?

This does not mean, however, that neither position was-is sincerely held. This comment is made not with reference to any particular individual but as point of principle.

[slackline]

Surely a Tory MP can be an idealist, but his "ideal" will differ somewhat from what a Labour MP's "ideal" is (well traditionally at least, there often seems little between them these days).

Eitherway, being an idealist is only useful for theoretical debates, you need pragmatists to get anything done.

[matthew]

This fella is an idealist - Kelvin Hopkins http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/newstopics/mps-expenses/5305149/Kelvin-Hopkins-the-MP-who-disdains-to-claim-MPs-expenses.html  - but not a wig so it doesn't really help the debate.

"have signed an Early Day Motion calling for the nationalisation of all second homes. If the state owned flats and rented them out to MPs, there wouldn’t be any problems about second home allowances or switching homes from one place to another and you wouldn’t have these problems with capital gains tax."

[Sloper]

If you plot the course of many in the Cabinet they've shifted from various positions on the hard left to positions to the right of the traditional one nation Conservatives; are they idealists?

This does not mean, however, that neither position was-is sincerely held. This comment is made not with reference to any particular individual but as point of principle.

Andy, perhaps you'd care to explain how one can move from a position of believing in the common ownership of the means of production to flipping properties and avoiding CGT on the profit (Mr Darling)?

I had a teenage dalliance with the left not because I believed in their policies (even then) but because they had the parties the booze and the girls.  So in short I don't believe can go from hard left to the right of Thatcher without compromising your ideals: as Tony Benn would say you're either a sign post or a wheather vein.  I rather suspect there are more signposts in the modern Conservative parliamentary party than in Labour.

I didn't want to make this a party political point but that bleeding short arsed trot started it (no offence John but you're no giant, and I should know)

[Houdini]

Conservatives have the best shoes.

[Sloper]

One can't go walking over the poor in cheap shoes can one?

[andy popp]

If you plot the course of many in the Cabinet they've shifted from various positions on the hard left to positions to the right of the traditional one nation Conservatives; are they idealists?

This does not mean, however, that neither position was-is sincerely held. This comment is made not with reference to any particular individual but as point of principle.

 So in short I don't believe can go from hard left to the right of Thatcher without compromising your ideals:

So its not possible to radically but sincerely reassess one's beliefs during the course of a life and the knowledge, learning and experiences it brings? Like I said, I was making no reference to either the PLP or any individuals in it. Perhaps I should have said it does not necessarily follow that either/both positions were insincerely held.

[Sloper]

You are of course correct; appropos my point; the problem is that Darling et al still mythologise about central themes that once ran through their politics and further; express one set of mores while acting contrary to the same, take for example, 'education, education, education' and 'the equality of opportunities' while introducing tuition fees.

[Houdini]

Not sure idealism is either here nor there as it's what policies are eventually implimented and their ramifications that count.


The problem as I see it, is that it seems rare for an MP of any persuasion to have any personal experience of poverty and as such come across as being utterly contemptuous of the poor [all the current rar-rar over expenses rubbing their noses in the fatcat shit once again].

[Sloper]

One doesn't need to have experienced poverty to want to ensure a decent standard of living for all just as one doesn't need to have given birth to want to ensure a high standard of midwiffery care to all expectant mothers.

The modern Labour party showed it had no moral standards and had abandoned all principle when it allowed Shaun Woodward (who once boasted about being so rich even his butler had staff) to cross the floor and then be parachuted into a safe seat, Wigan I think.

Politics may be the art of the possible but if you forget what your beliefs are you'll end up believing anything.

Anway, here's to Labour politicians trying to claim £8600 for a television set.

[Houdini]

Look man, I appreciate your point-of-view ...


                                                              ... but I still want Nicholas Soames to die.   

[andy popp]

Point scoring over the current debacle is a zero-sum game.

But I think Houdini has a point. Pure unguided pragmatism should be avoided but idealism is only meaningful in the context of its effects. For what its worth, I think Thatcher was both highly idealistic and deeply principled (in relation to her ideals that is), however, some of her actions were deeply corrosive in their effects of her core ideals. There was a fundamential disjuncture between her economic liberalism and her social conservatism that was impossible to reconcile and deeply pernicious.

[Houdini]

[Running that through the Bullshitulator:  she was a c*nt]

[Sloper]

Indeed you're right, I am both economically liberal and socially liberal.  The point about the left is that it tends to both social and economic conservatism or illiberalism which label you wish to apply.

As for points scoring, I know its childish, but for all the jibes about moats a snide comment about Mr Kauffan seems to be entirely in order.

Houdini, what as 'fatty Soames' done to offend you?

[Houdini]

He ate my family.



Always had respect for Portillo, myself.

[andy popp]

[Running that through the Bullshitulator:  she was a c*nt]

That too.

[Sloper]

He ate my family.



Always had respect for Portillo, myself.

What's the problem? Did his cheque bounce.

Portillo is for me an example of the worst type of politician, a say anything to be popular, moral free wind bag.  Was 'I up for Portillo, you bet and it was along with "up your hacienda Jimmy" one of the high points of that long May night.

[Houdini]

I've got NASA working on Slopers' post now, but till they get back to me, can anyone venture a translation?  ???

[Sloper]

Portillo lost in a closely contested constituency (Harlow East I think) to a young, inexperienced and openly gay Stephen Twigg.  This was in one of the strongholds of Essex Man, portrayed as Thatcherite, anti gay etc.  It was a seminal moment of television watching their respective faces and this was, perhaps after Gilsela what's her name in Ladywood, (or is that Clare Short, who cares? ed.) was something that few who saw it will forget hence the phrase.

Up your hacienda Jimmy was Sir James Goldsmith who was resident in Spain standing as a UKIP candidate in Chelsea to try and unseat the incumber foot sucking football shirt wearing Tory, I forget his name but he had bad teeth: got it David Mellor.  Anyway Mellor lost and he gave a really combative speech basically saying 'fuck off' to the electorate. Top Value.