[john horscroft]

Like it says.  A few times over the last few days I've heard MP's, including tories, saying they went into parliament to make a difference, like they were on some great mission.  So, tory idealist, an oxymoron?

jh

[Fiend]

"john horscroft" is a funny mispelling of "Sloper"  ???

[andy popp]

So, tory idealist, an oxymoron?

No, of course not. Why on earth would you think it was?

[BenF]

I'm sure there are plenty of tory idealists, it's just that they can have some funny ideas about what constitutes "ideal".  In my opinion of course.

[Sloper]

If you plot the course of many in the Cabinet they've shifted from various positions on the hard left to positions to the right of the traditional one nation Conservatives; are they idealists?

[BenF]

If you plot the course of many in the Cabinet they've shifted from various positions on the hard left to positions to the right of the traditional one nation Conservatives; are they idealists?

I've not been particularly impressed with the ideals of many in the Labour party either.  They clearly seem to change over time anyway.

Come on Billy Bragg, stand for election.   

[andy popp]

If you plot the course of many in the Cabinet they've shifted from various positions on the hard left to positions to the right of the traditional one nation Conservatives; are they idealists?

This does not mean, however, that neither position was-is sincerely held. This comment is made not with reference to any particular individual but as point of principle.

[slackline]

Surely a Tory MP can be an idealist, but his "ideal" will differ somewhat from what a Labour MP's "ideal" is (well traditionally at least, there often seems little between them these days).

Eitherway, being an idealist is only useful for theoretical debates, you need pragmatists to get anything done.

[matthew]

This fella is an idealist - Kelvin Hopkins http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/newstopics/mps-expenses/5305149/Kelvin-Hopkins-the-MP-who-disdains-to-claim-MPs-expenses.html  - but not a wig so it doesn't really help the debate.

"have signed an Early Day Motion calling for the nationalisation of all second homes. If the state owned flats and rented them out to MPs, there wouldn’t be any problems about second home allowances or switching homes from one place to another and you wouldn’t have these problems with capital gains tax."

[Sloper]

If you plot the course of many in the Cabinet they've shifted from various positions on the hard left to positions to the right of the traditional one nation Conservatives; are they idealists?

This does not mean, however, that neither position was-is sincerely held. This comment is made not with reference to any particular individual but as point of principle.

Andy, perhaps you'd care to explain how one can move from a position of believing in the common ownership of the means of production to flipping properties and avoiding CGT on the profit (Mr Darling)?

I had a teenage dalliance with the left not because I believed in their policies (even then) but because they had the parties the booze and the girls.  So in short I don't believe can go from hard left to the right of Thatcher without compromising your ideals: as Tony Benn would say you're either a sign post or a wheather vein.  I rather suspect there are more signposts in the modern Conservative parliamentary party than in Labour.

I didn't want to make this a party political point but that bleeding short arsed trot started it (no offence John but you're no giant, and I should know)

[Houdini]

Conservatives have the best shoes.

[Sloper]

One can't go walking over the poor in cheap shoes can one?

[andy popp]

If you plot the course of many in the Cabinet they've shifted from various positions on the hard left to positions to the right of the traditional one nation Conservatives; are they idealists?

This does not mean, however, that neither position was-is sincerely held. This comment is made not with reference to any particular individual but as point of principle.

 So in short I don't believe can go from hard left to the right of Thatcher without compromising your ideals:

So its not possible to radically but sincerely reassess one's beliefs during the course of a life and the knowledge, learning and experiences it brings? Like I said, I was making no reference to either the PLP or any individuals in it. Perhaps I should have said it does not necessarily follow that either/both positions were insincerely held.

[Sloper]

You are of course correct; appropos my point; the problem is that Darling et al still mythologise about central themes that once ran through their politics and further; express one set of mores while acting contrary to the same, take for example, 'education, education, education' and 'the equality of opportunities' while introducing tuition fees.

[Houdini]

Not sure idealism is either here nor there as it's what policies are eventually implimented and their ramifications that count.


The problem as I see it, is that it seems rare for an MP of any persuasion to have any personal experience of poverty and as such come across as being utterly contemptuous of the poor [all the current rar-rar over expenses rubbing their noses in the fatcat shit once again].

[Sloper]

One doesn't need to have experienced poverty to want to ensure a decent standard of living for all just as one doesn't need to have given birth to want to ensure a high standard of midwiffery care to all expectant mothers.

The modern Labour party showed it had no moral standards and had abandoned all principle when it allowed Shaun Woodward (who once boasted about being so rich even his butler had staff) to cross the floor and then be parachuted into a safe seat, Wigan I think.

Politics may be the art of the possible but if you forget what your beliefs are you'll end up believing anything.

Anway, here's to Labour politicians trying to claim £8600 for a television set.

[Houdini]

Look man, I appreciate your point-of-view ...


                                                              ... but I still want Nicholas Soames to die.   

[andy popp]

Point scoring over the current debacle is a zero-sum game.

But I think Houdini has a point. Pure unguided pragmatism should be avoided but idealism is only meaningful in the context of its effects. For what its worth, I think Thatcher was both highly idealistic and deeply principled (in relation to her ideals that is), however, some of her actions were deeply corrosive in their effects of her core ideals. There was a fundamential disjuncture between her economic liberalism and her social conservatism that was impossible to reconcile and deeply pernicious.

[Houdini]

[Running that through the Bullshitulator:  she was a c*nt]

[Sloper]

Indeed you're right, I am both economically liberal and socially liberal.  The point about the left is that it tends to both social and economic conservatism or illiberalism which label you wish to apply.

As for points scoring, I know its childish, but for all the jibes about moats a snide comment about Mr Kauffan seems to be entirely in order.

Houdini, what as 'fatty Soames' done to offend you?

[Houdini]

He ate my family.



Always had respect for Portillo, myself.

[andy popp]

[Running that through the Bullshitulator:  she was a c*nt]

That too.

[Sloper]

He ate my family.



Always had respect for Portillo, myself.

What's the problem? Did his cheque bounce.

Portillo is for me an example of the worst type of politician, a say anything to be popular, moral free wind bag.  Was 'I up for Portillo, you bet and it was along with "up your hacienda Jimmy" one of the high points of that long May night.

[Houdini]

I've got NASA working on Slopers' post now, but till they get back to me, can anyone venture a translation?  ???

[Sloper]

Portillo lost in a closely contested constituency (Harlow East I think) to a young, inexperienced and openly gay Stephen Twigg.  This was in one of the strongholds of Essex Man, portrayed as Thatcherite, anti gay etc.  It was a seminal moment of television watching their respective faces and this was, perhaps after Gilsela what's her name in Ladywood, (or is that Clare Short, who cares? ed.) was something that few who saw it will forget hence the phrase.

Up your hacienda Jimmy was Sir James Goldsmith who was resident in Spain standing as a UKIP candidate in Chelsea to try and unseat the incumber foot sucking football shirt wearing Tory, I forget his name but he had bad teeth: got it David Mellor.  Anyway Mellor lost and he gave a really combative speech basically saying 'fuck off' to the electorate. Top Value.

[Houdini]

Fair enough, but I bet Portillo keeps a damn fine cellar.

[clm]

Has Popps got a politics degree?  I shall wad him for being verbose.

[andy popp]

I know, I know, I'm sorry. You can take the boy out of academia but not academia out of the boy. Never studied politics though.

[Sloper]

Really?  Perhaps that's why you support a discredited, illogical and flawed theory of politics:-*

[tomtom]

Can a Tory be an idealist?

Of course - if your ideals are gaining at the expense of others...

But that question reveals what for me is so boring/depressing about todays politics... there does not seem to be anything new. The only 'ideals' seem to be who can take the middle ground.  Cameron, blair, brown, clegg - whoever - it only seems to be about who can take the voters. Nothing new. Nothing interesting. 

I hate/hated Thatcher - but you could not deny that she stuck by her morals...
Bish bash bosh loadsamoney.... the 80's with the worship of the £ were to me in so many ways morally repugnant - but at least it was up front and what you saw was what you got...

Obama has offered the US a bit of hope from their one way politics... I hope it works - though maybe he will just end up being ameliorated by those around him.... 

Good question but Arse. Feckers, the lot of them....  where's me vino tinto...

[john horscroft]

I really must apologise, posing the question and then disappearing for 24 hours, terribly rude even for a 'bleeding short arsed trot' (you're too kind Sloper, too kind  ).  Perhaps my original question was too simplistic.  What exactly would a Tory ideal be then?  Us lefties know what we strive for, a more equal distribution of wealth, education and opportunity, free beer and sarnies for all trade unionists and Timothy Taylor Landlord on the national health.  However, we're wreathed in doubt the whole time, wondering if the world is perfectable or not.  Perhaps we just hopeless utopians. 

Yer average poor-trampling Tory however displays no such uncertainties.  They know the world isn't on the road to utopia, that humans are venal acquisitive creatures to the very core and feel that it's only right and proper that those qualities be exploited to the full.  So what is there to strive for?  Greater wealth for the fortunate few?  More efficient exploitation of the lumpen proletariat?

Over to you Sloper..............

the bleedin' short arsed trot

[Sloper]

Tory ideals, at least to me include;

1. Respecting personal linerty on the basis that the degree to which the state intervenes into one's personal life should be kept to an absolute minimum.

2. Economic liberalism,

3. An absolute meritocracy and the equality of opportunity based on talent and not wealth or priviledge

I'm sure others will have their own views but that's my take.

[slackline]

Tory ideals, at least to me include;

1. Respecting personal linerty on the basis that the degree to which the state intervenes into one's personal life should be kept to an absolute minimum.

2. Economic liberalism,

3. An absolute meritocracy and the equality of opportunity based on talent and not wealth or priviledge

I'm sure others will have their own views but that's my take.

  Maybe you should stand in the next elections Sloper 

[Sloper]

Indeed and to ensure the democratic wil is respected I'd like to open nominations for manifesto commitments; I'll kick off with

1. Anyone who wants to tow a caravan needs an HGV license.
2. Top roping anything below E7 should be an imprisonable offence.

[john horscroft]

Tory ideals, at least to me include;

1. Respecting personal linerty on the basis that the degree to which the state intervenes into one's personal life should be kept to an absolute minimum.

2. Economic liberalism,

3. An absolute meritocracy and the equality of opportunity based on talent and not wealth or priviledge

I'm sure others will have their own views but that's my take.

I'm sorry, I should be taking this more seriously, but I'm still smiling as a result of Sloper calling me a short arsed trot.  I can't believe it, but it's made my day.....

however,

1. No problem with one, I think.

2.  Come on Sloper, that's lame.  What does economic liberalism encompass?  How far along that particular road do you go? John Stuart Mill?  Milton Friedmanesque laissez faire?  Neo con devil take the hindmost?

3. Nice.  Makes you sound like Tony Blair.......


jh

[Jaspersharpe]

Indeed and to ensure the democratic wil is respected I'd like to open nominations for manifesto commitments; I'll kick off with

1. Anyone who wants to tow a caravan needs an HGV license.
2. Top roping anything below E7 Using V Grades should be an imprisonable offence.

[john horscroft]

Indeed and to ensure the democratic wil is respected I'd like to open nominations for manifesto commitments; I'll kick off with

1. Anyone who wants to tow a caravan needs an HGV license.
2. Top roping anything below E7 Using V Grades should be an imprisonable offence.

Yeah, I'm with you fella, everyone knows B grades are where it's at.......

jh

[Sloper]

I'm sorry, I should be taking this more seriously, but I'm still smiling as a result of Sloper calling me a short arsed trot.  I can't believe it, but it's made my day.....

Just for clarity which bit are you disputing? 

Economic liberalism has provided for more human benefit than anything else, it's not perfect then nothing else is.  All this nonsense about capitalism failing is just such a load of bollox; the system is working exactly how it should it's just that the regulatory framework has resulted in consequences that people don't like.

Of course some regulation is necessary and desireable but this should be kept to an absolute minimum, if you take risks be prepared to take the consequences.  If you don't know what the risks are then you shouldn't be playing the game.

So, will some people get burned? Yes absolutely.  Will some of those people be 'innocent'? Again yes.  Is this desireable? Absolutely, the greater the regulation the more restricted the growth.

[luckyjez]

 "the greater the regulation the more restricted the growth."

Surely, the quest for eternal and maximised growth is now an outdated paradigm? Economic growth certainly can benefit a country and its inhabitants, but solely striving to maximise growth whilst disregarding the inevitable consequences is simplistic at best. It is an extremely tricky balancing act. I work in retail and the only sensible business maxim is "turnover is vanity, profit is sanity"; an unprofitable business isn't a business, it's an expensive hobby. However, a sustainable and long lasting business is likely to be one that takes a measured view of growth rather than attempting to make larger short term gains.

[slackline]

An Essay on the Principle of Population, as it affects the Future Improvement of Society with remarks on the Speculations of Mr. Godwin, M. Condorcet, and Other Writers.

Common, the principles governing population growth have been around for years, it took an economist to spark a biologists interests, and now all the economists have forgotten about it, back to basic principles please. 

[Sloper]

two points,

1. I find the application of Kuhn's notioon of paradigm to be fundamentally flawed, Popper destroyed the relativistic nonsense that underpins the value of approaching subjects via ann understanding of 'paradigm'.  As to your point Jex, to maintain growth you have to maintain the 'health' of the goose that lays the golden egg. 

As such 'sustainability' has been key to maintaining growth and if you're only concerned about the next 1/4's figures then you're not going to be around for too long.

2. Malthus was fundamentally wrong as he failed to factor in technological developments. Need prompts development but things tend to move to development only when there's a profit to be had.  The perfect exemplar is the move from whale oil, to tallow, to artificial candles, to gas lighting to electricity etc.

[john horscroft]

two points,

1. I find the application of Kuhn's notioon of paradigm to be fundamentally flawed, Popper destroyed the relativistic nonsense that underpins the value of approaching subjects via ann understanding of 'paradigm'.  As to your point Jex, to maintain growth you have to maintain the 'health' of the goose that lays the golden egg. 

As such 'sustainability' has been key to maintaining growth and if you're only concerned about the next 1/4's figures then you're not going to be around for too long.

2. Malthus was fundamentally wrong as he failed to factor in technological developments. Need prompts development but things tend to move to development only when there's a profit to be had.  The perfect exemplar is the move from whale oil, to tallow, to artificial candles, to gas lighting to electricity etc.

Well, now you're just being silly.  At least, I surmise you are because I didn't understand a word.  Still, what can you epect from a simple lad like me......

jh

[Houdini]

You Barbour & brown brogue-wearing Eco-liberals fucked British public transport a new asshole.  

[john horscroft]

I'm sorry, I should be taking this more seriously, but I'm still smiling as a result of Sloper calling me a short arsed trot.  I can't believe it, but it's made my day.....

Just for clarity which bit are you disputing? 

I'm not disputing a word of it.  Unlike most of your other posts, describing me as a short arsed trot is both concise and correct......


love and kisses
the short arsed trot


ps.  I might adopt it as a nomme de guerre

[Sloper]

Sorry, about the errors in the previous couple fo posts, I was on the phone to a moron, aka a solicitor.

John feel free to use the phrase 'short arsed trot'.

Houdini, are you back on the crack?

[john horscroft]

OY! I don't NEED your permission, Tory Boy!



















Sorry, I came over all class-war there.....


The Trot


(It is kinda snappier)

[Sloper]

How long is it before there'e a marxist-lenninist purge?

[bobkatebob]

The Trot


(It is kinda snappier)

Sorry to say, but to me it sounds more like you have diarrhea more squidge than snap 

[john horscroft]

Ah, that would be my trusty band of comrades, The Trots......

jh

[john horscroft]

How long is it before there'e a marxist-lenninist purge?

Any time, but we're ready for the bastards.........