[Andy Harris]

To celebrate the 2009 "calling of the lime"® I particpated in the ancient Peak tradition of climbing something that's allready been done, but backwards and then renaming it & grading it.

Ladies & Gentlemen, Boys & Girls I give you Brass Band, Font 8a. It's similar but definately more unpleasant and knarly than climbing Ben's Traverse (left of Powerband for non-officinados) the normal way (ie. right to left).

Video to follow.

[Paul B]

didn't Dave Mason call something Big Brass Band... Blueband into R&H?

[Andy Harris]

Afraid I have no idea but I did like this because it was my 2nd choice for what became Boy Band. If it is then I'll have to have a re-think so let me know.

[Andy Harris]

It's just struck me, a name I've been dying to use for ages and was reserving for a current grit project.

Pocketrocity

even more suited to this problem!!! And whilst strictly not in with accepted Tor nomenclature, well in line with another lime traverse.

[r-man]

didn't Dave Mason call something Big Brass Band... Blueband into R&H?

Yeah, strict Blueband into R&H the hard way:

http://ukbouldering.com/board/index.php/topic=7634.0

[Andy B]

Was it dry just to the right of Pinches Wall Andy? or did you start right of that?

(and more importantly, can I tick Ben's Traverse if that patch is too wet to get to pinches wall?)

[Ru]

Glad Andy did this as it now means I can do it without feeling guilty. As for the name, although Daves traverse is hard I do think we should draw the line at naming and claiming link ups of eliminates (referring here to Big Brass Band) not least because historically lots of these have been done but not claimed/named. As a guidebook writer (of both the bouldering guide and the Tor section of the next BMC guide) I'm reluctant to put some eliminate link ups in but not others just because a name and grade has been given. Plus there's plenty of non eliminate links left waiting to be done, and several that have been done but not named graded or claimed. Maybe I'm wrong in this, but I dont want to get to the stage in 10 years whereby every problem at the Tor needs hold diagrams or a 3 paragraph description to describe it.   

[abarro81]

What about staminahumps?

[Andy Harris]

It starts on the massive jugs at the end of the original Ben's traverse. The holds immediately right of pinches wall are still sodden but where I started is the logical point (the vid will make it clear.

Ru makes a good point and whilst I hadn't thought of the implications for guide book writers I've always thought that the whole eliminate thing can get a bit crazy. Now that may seem a bit rich coming from someone like me but for places like -10 there's real historical significance and it was a neccessity of the time. For lots of link ups & eliminates it's more a locals thing and it's fine for these to be passed on by word of mouth (like all the rattle & hump eliminates that would be horrendous to catalogue).

Traverses are a bit different as they generally climb quite differently one way than another and hence the moves are more unique.

Today there seems to be a penchant for 1st ascents and another grade to add to the list but I guess someone has to draw the line, in this case the guide book writers. Where would it end? We could start a trend of starting at the top of a boulder problem and down climbing it for another tick.

Maybe this would make a good thread?

Apart from Steve Mac's mega project of Boy Band + Staminaband + Ben's traverse + Warm up traverse + Weedkiller traverse + Fat Lip + Mecca extension I can think of a more accesible 9a link (Blue Band + Polish Daves 8a + Seraphim)

[Ru]

What about staminahumps?

There's a few examples of eliminatey link ups for various historical reasons. I'm just wondering whether a line should be drawn at actively claiming and naming new eliminate links. Staminahumps was never claimed and named when done, it just became popular and was described in guides accordingly. But what about Non-strict Blueband into Rattle and Hump - done years ago and as a concept is more pure than the eliminate version, Powerband/Blueband, Staminaband/Blueband, Ben's roof (hard, orginal, way) reversing the easy end and finishing under Mecca, Ben's traverse into Little Extra, Should be Band into Little Extra getting the crimp with right hand, going left into the slots, then finishing along Zippy's traverse into Weedkiller, Ben's Traverse into Undercut problem, Footless Powerhumps, etc etc. That's without describing the various problem/route links. I'm all for claiming/grading new, obvious links, however. Some of Steve's links also deserve more recognition. For instance, Weedkiller into Ben's Roof is non-eliminate and must be 8B/+ (unless the crux can be lanked). I'm not objecting to Pocketrocity as I feel this falls on the right side of the line, as it's a non eliminate A to B line with no rules.

[uptown]

I'm just wondering whether a line should be drawn at actively claiming and naming new eliminate links.
I'm all for claiming/grading new, obvious links, however. Some of Steve's links also deserve more recognition.

The Jury's out but who are the Jury?
Guidebook writers can have the last say as to what's included, yet I'd like the information (if it's out there) of links and eliminates without having to find a local when I make my perennial early bird visits. As is traditionally lamented: "knowledge is power".
Oh - great effort Andy in keeping the log faith. Looking forward to the video.

[duncan]

I'm just wondering whether a line should be drawn at actively claiming and naming new eliminate links.
I'm all for claiming/grading new, obvious links, however. Some of Steve's links also deserve more recognition.

... I'd like the information (if it's out there) of links and eliminates without having to find a local when I make my perennial early bird visits.

Same answer as what to do about crap vegetated horrors esoteric gems: the crag wiki.

The guidebook writer decides what is immortalized in print but the information is still readily available for people who want to tick the entire crag.

[The Sausage]

I agree with Ru... naming a link of established problems is really kosher. If Staminaband into PUTP doesn't have a name, then none of those should. As he says, powerhumps/staminahumps have just been coined to describe the problems, they've not been named as such, and are (obviously) just a hybrid of the current names. And they flow off the tongue quite nicely.

[Andy Harris]

have to say i agree with Ru & Joe, you need to draw the line somewhere or it will all get a bit crazy.

If you take Tom's roof as an extreme example, there's say 25 standalone problems and if calculate the amount of potential link ups it'll be in the 1000's. It would be ridiculous to rename them all. However that doesn't devalue what people have done and I'd be interested to read on the web what people are up  to.

One way to incorporate this in the guidebooks would be to have a small section where you record link ups in say this sort of format:
PB + OOMT =8a+
SB + PUTP =8a+
that way you could record dozens of worthwile eliminates in a tiny space, but ascentionists + new names would be a no go
apart from maybe groundbreaking link ups where ascentionists would be recorded (eg. some of steves bonkers links)

wonder how the n.wales crew view this as in somewhere like Parisellas, whilst there are a lot of stand alone problems but a lot of the harder problems seem to be link ups? but i guess that's up to the local activists / writers.

[r-man]

wonder how the n.wales crew view this as in somewhere like Parisellas, whilst there are a lot of stand alone problems but a lot of the harder problems seem to be link ups? but i guess that's up to the local activists / writers.

This is what they do: http://northwalesbouldering.com/newsitem.asp?nsid=398

One way to incorporate this in the guidebooks would be to have a small section where you record link ups in say this sort of format:
PB + OOMT =8a+
SB + PUTP =8a+
that way you could record dozens of worthwile eliminates in a tiny space, but ascentionists + new names would be a no go
apart from maybe groundbreaking link ups where ascentionists would be recorded (eg. some of steves bonkers links)

I agree, have a page or two devoted to Raven Tor link ups, but concisely formatted. The same with Rubicon.

[Jaspersharpe]

Good plan. Problem solved.

[Andy Harris]

now that's consice and althougha  little small for my eyes looks spot on. Guess this works perfect for the cave as it 1 relatively small mass of rock. For places like the tor where things are a little more distanced a crib sheet of links ups where the user can reference the standalone bits in the guide proper would work well.

[monkey boy]

This sounds like a plan.

Was thinking that its quite strange we both went for brassband andy?!

If stuff like powerhumps/staminahumps are named, it would make sense for blueband into rattle and humps to be called bluehumps?!

[cofe]

can someone climb chimes into rattle and humps so we can have 'Chumps'?

[Pantontino]

have to say i agree with Ru & Joe, you need to draw the line somewhere or it will all get a bit crazy.

If you take Tom's roof as an extreme example, there's say 25 standalone problems and if calculate the amount of potential link ups it'll be in the 1000's. It would be ridiculous to rename them all. However that doesn't devalue what people have done and I'd be interested to read on the web what people are up  to.

One way to incorporate this in the guidebooks would be to have a small section where you record link ups in say this sort of format:
PB + OOMT =8a+
SB + PUTP =8a+
that way you could record dozens of worthwile eliminates in a tiny space, but ascentionists + new names would be a no go
apart from maybe groundbreaking link ups where ascentionists would be recorded (eg. some of steves bonkers links)

wonder how the n.wales crew view this as in somewhere like Parisellas, whilst there are a lot of stand alone problems but a lot of the harder problems seem to be link ups? but i guess that's up to the local activists / writers.

If there is no new ground covered in a link style problem I don't think it should be given an entirely new name. I think combo names are more appropriate, even when there is a little bit of new ground (e.g. Clever Cleaver in the Cave which connects Clever Beaver into the top of Beaver Cleaver via 3 or 4 independant moves).

I was thinking about Barrel Traverese reverse into the Barrel Groove link the other day - now this is clearly one of the best stamina 8A/+s around (although it covers no new ground at all, save for climbing the traverse backwards), but it is a right mouthful. Therefore: 'The Barrel - Groove link' - it rolls off the tongue a lot easier and removes the need for a new unrelated name.

There are exceptions to this where somebody climbs the definitive link up: e.g. Pilgrimage/Big Link or Silk Cut. The latter is also a good example of naming something in harmony with the problems it incorporates - I like that, it shows wit and respect at the same time.

For those of you who haven't got a copy of the new Parisella's Cave guide (Surely a shocking ommission for any self respecting climber's library!), I tried to give titled descriptions to the major lines, with notes at the end of the description of the related variations and links. Other less logical, but notably difficult links were listed at the end. Some folk choose to name these, others don't. I think whether you should depends on the specifics, you gotta keep an eye on the specifics...

[uptown]

I agree with everyone here...
My point (though very poorly made before) is that guidebook writers should have a responsibility to record all of the problems at a given venue. Exceptions to this rule would be for ubereasy and uberlog climbs. How they accept this challenge is for them to decide, suggestions made here seem worthy.
My gripe would be in seeing a certain local book cherrypicking problems, omitting problem names, and making very little note of the first ascentionist and date details. I was obviously spoilt with a bmc guidebook upbringing.
So what's in a name?
It's a capture of social history, an aid to description and a pointer away from present number obsession.
It really doesn't matter what something is called, or who names it but in an age of high tech communication -
"that 7b sitstart from the undercut left of the crack, which works up to the left arete whilst eliminating the break"
hardly aids convivial pub chatter apres-blocs? non?
Answers as ever on a Yorkshire postcard...

[richdraws]

Johnny Brown? Johnny Brown where are you?

[Jaspersharpe]

Hibernating in a compost bin.

[dobbin]

whilst I cannot confirm or deny the rumours, It is true that I lured Jb to a local hostelry last night. Who is to say whether or not he followed the trail of grit crumbs into the airing cupboard...

[Johnny Brown]

Me. He didn't. Softy limestone climbers had to go to bed early though as I recall.

I feel there's little to add to this 'news' thread that isn't self evident? As Lehrer said 'satire became obsolete when Henry Kissinger was awarded the Nobel Peace Prize.'