[tommytwotone]

So - I woke up on Sunday morning with yet another crappy little injury, this time in my left shoulder, the latest in a run of about 6 months of having something creaking that's necessitated a layoff from climbing.

Since early summer I've managed to:

Pull my knee heelhooking in the Works
Developed some golfer's that took a couple of months to sort out
While I couldn't climb I pulled my hamstring playing 5 a side with work (bad idea I know)
When my elbow was better I re-pulled my knee (you guessed it, heelhooking in the Works)
Now I appear to have messed up my shoulder - feels a bit rotator cuff-y (might have inflamed an old injury)

Basically, the deal is this - against my better judgement (I'd always prefer a bit of SCIENCE), I'm coming round to the idea / theory that I might me harbouring some sort of 'bad energy' (for want of a better phrase to describe it). It really feels like I've got some malevolent force moving round my body that won't leave.

This period of constant injury has coincided with a phase of time that's been pretty hard for a range of reasons (job stress, relationship breakup, new job, possible redundancy now), and I've not been a terribly happy chap as a result.

I've kind of got used to using climbing as my therapy when things are bad, and it's been really frustrating to not be able to do it. I'm aware that a lot of stuff can be psychosomatic, but at the moment it feels like my body's on a mission to prevent me from doing the things I want to do.

So I know there's a whole raft of alternative shit out there I could look into - reiki, crystals, acupuncture - fuck it, I'd consider an exorcist if I could climb / train regularly in '09.

I'm not really looking for an answer here, just people's take / opinions / experience - I'm getting to the point where I'm seriously considering jacking climbing in if my body can't / won't take it.

[Fiend]

One view is that there's a fair amount of pretty crucial energy flowing around the body in the form of nervous signals at least. Maybe there could be an issue with that, maybe so-called "alternative" therapies could be beneficial in that way or in another way.

I personally think having to be in either the "conventional medicine is the law fuck all that hippy shit" camp OR the "ommmmm let me just stick that crystal up my ass to change my aura" camp is a rather outdated distinction. Having said that if speculating on alternative treatments annoys the diehard conventionalists, that's reason alone to raise the issue in my books .

I'd say go for it, look into, and see which paths personally feel right, which ones your instincts gel with...

[magpie]

I've had reiki done, I was a bit sceptical and felt really sick and horrible right after it but I woke up the next day feeling amazing, really amazing, and it lasted for a good while afterwards.  I'd definitely have it again and have told a few folk to give it a go.  Whether there's anything to it, I don't know, but it made a really big difference to me at the time. 

However, I am the type who carries crystals all the time and I'm quite into alternative things for making you feel better, a lot of people will tell you it's a load of crap.    If you think it might help you then why not give something a bit different to go, it won't do you any harm, will it?

[SA Chris]

To quote Cartman - It's all a bunch of tree hugging hippy crap (sorry).

I reckon you need to start training more sensibly, warm up properly, stretch a bit once warmed up and warm down properly. Do some training to balance muscles. I think all the injuries could have been prevented (including the hamstring, although 5 a side is a very silly things to do). Although I don't believe in it being any more than a good stretching and muscle strengthening exercise, some yoga might do you some good too. Also the way you climb might be bad for you - do you have any bad habits?

I think you need to examine your training and climbing routines before pinning your hopes on some alternative therapy. A holistic view of your climbing rather looking at holistic medicines.

If you do and have done all of the above ignore me.

[lagerstarfish]

It's not too far from SCIENCE, but is still in the tree-hugging corner; I had some success dabbling in the Feldenkrais Method. I mentioned it here.
If you look on feldenkrais.co.uk you will find a list of Awareness Through Movement classes in Sheffield. You can go for individual sessions as well.
My main memory of the classes is when everybody cracked up laughing and couldn't stop - that in itself ought to make you feel better.

[Johnny Brown]

My shoulders haven't been right for about four years, seems to come from tension in my back. Tried a bunch of stuff - physio mainly, plus chiro/ osteo, acupuncture and reiki. Being massaged and manipulated definitely helps but wasn't a cure. acupuncture wwas very good on the short term, but again didn't fix it. Reiki, I don't know, I'd feel a bit stoned afterwards but it was always after physio and acupuncture so who knows - I daresay if I was a physio I'd try anything to give my thumbs a rest. The osteo also used kinesiology to diagnose a zinc deficiency which frankly I think is bullshit.

Gave up on all of the above and took up yoga. Hasn't fixed anything but keeps it well under control plus is cheaper than treatment and has given me flexibility, core strength and much improved posture. I would recommend it or anything similar to generally get your body right and more resilient. Bouldering is tough on the body and I reckon once past 25 or so you've got to start working the antagonists a bit otherwise you'll end up a fuckedup hunchback.

[dave]

Most "alternative" stuff is complete guff, and those that do work in some way almost certainly don't work for the reason that the practitioners think, and will most likely only give you a placebo effect. When tested in a controlled test I think I'm right in thinking that most if not all don't give any real benefits. if you believe in it enough you can probably glean soe placebo effect, in the same way that if you believe in it hard enough you can cure cancer by licking a rotweiler's ballsack. I think the grey area is acupuncture, since its hard of not impossible to actually do a proper blind test.

I once went to a presentation on reflexology at an away day at my old work, I had to try very hard not to laugh out loud the whole way through. The woman was being overtly ernest and sincere about the whole thing, yet it wa sall clearly bullshit. She attempted to prove you could tell the body's ailments from the feet by asking for volunteers. a collegue in his mid 40s struggled out of his chair and gingerly walked over to the front, wincing. She mystically diagnosed correctly he had a bad back - no shit einstein!

Your problem probably doesn't have an easy or quick answer. probably a combination of stress, underlying injuries/weaknesses manifesting themselves, possibly other things like letting yourself get rundown etc etc etc. Probably all you need is a change/fresh challenge/rest, or put that alternative bumming money aside for a sports physio or something.

[lagerstarfish]

There is always The Way Of The Alco-Shamen...  

I think The Guru explains this solution very well, covering all points mentioned in Tom's initial post.

[moose]

Most "alternative" stuff is complete guff, and those that do work in some way almost certainly don't work for the reason that the practitioners think, and will most likely only give you a placebo effect. When tested in a controlled test I think I'm right in thinking that most if not all don't give any real benefits. if you believe in it enough you can probably glean soe placebo effect, in the same way that if you believe in it hard enough you can cure cancer by licking a rotweiler's ballsack. I think the grey area is acupuncture, since its hard of not impossible to actually do a proper blind test.

I can vaguely recall a couple of single blind tests of accupuncture.  One used retractable needles to provide a control, the other used needles inserted by a proper accupuncturist into the wrong places for control (i.e. not in chi centres).  As I remember, in neither case was there any significant improvement over the control.  That's not to say that there wasn't any improvement at all - the placebo effect saw to that: the usual improvements explicable by a combination of the immune-system boosting feeling that someone cares, the patient's eagerness to please, and reversion to the mean.   

Personally, despite the dearth of evidence for any alternative therapy, and since you sound like you are at your wit's end, I'd go for it though.  The power of the placebo effect is not to be sniffed at - just choose a therapy that appeals and embrace it.  The main thing is to do something proactive - feel like you are takng some control of your physiological destiny rather than being at the mercy of your own capricious healing responses.  Johnny Brown's suggestion of yoga sounds sensible - I've known a few people who benefited from it and if you do the right variant of it you might get some real core strength / posture gains even if the "hippy shit" mental side doesn't wash.  In a similar vein I've suffered from a string of back problems and other upper-body niggles (I'm a lanky sloucher) and found that doing pilates helped (some of the exercises seem yoga derived?) - more core strength and just made me feel generally a bit more robust and in control of my own musculature. 

A bit off topic but I was always put off reiki by my experience of living with someone who espoused it - a joyless misery who's entire life seemed to revolve around finding new food groups to be avoided.  Her unquestioning acceptance of any alternative therapy essentially seemed to be a fear of modern life and a desire to appear different - as though an interesting personality could be assembled from the embrace of various quackeries.  Not that I'm wholeheartedly against non-mainstream therapy.  I personally think that if something can be proved to work, preferably by double-blind testing, then IT IS MEDICINE: regardless of whether it originates from a Chinese herbalist or a wizard's sack. 

[slackline]

I personally think that if something can be proved to work, preferably by double-blind testing, then IT IS MEDICINE: regardless of whether it originates from a Chinese herbalist or a wizard's sack. 

I wouldn't want anything from a wizards sack.

If something works it works, period, irrespective of whether its "mainstream" or "alternative".  However to assess whether it works requires the gold-standard of statistical/medical research of double-blind experiements.

To quote Cartman - It's all a bunch of tree hugging hippy crap (sorry).

I think you need to examine your training and climbing routines before pinning your hopes on some alternative therapy. A holistic view of your climbing rather looking at holistic medicines.

 

[dave]

Most "alternative" stuff is complete guff, and those that do work in some way almost certainly don't work for the reason that the practitioners think, and will most likely only give you a placebo effect. When tested in a controlled test I think I'm right in thinking that most if not all don't give any real benefits. if you believe in it enough you can probably glean soe placebo effect, in the same way that if you believe in it hard enough you can cure cancer by licking a rotweiler's ballsack. I think the grey area is acupuncture, since its hard of not impossible to actually do a proper blind test.

I can vaguely recall a couple of single blind tests of accupuncture.  One used retractable needles to provide a control, the other used needles inserted by a proper accupuncturist into the wrong places for control (i.e. not in chi centres).

I think you really need double-blind test to be meaninful. The qualified accupuncturist in the above example know he's doing is bogusly, and therefore that could be picked up on (through body language etc) by the subject.

placebo power can be strong, but since you're aware of it you're less likely to find it beneficial (you've burst your own bubble) since it generally revolves around either total belief or acceptance of authority etc.

[mini]

Gave up on all of the above and took up yoga. Hasn't fixed anything but keeps it well under control plus is cheaper than treatment and has given me flexibility, core strength and much improved posture. I would recommend it or anything similar to generally get your body right and more resilient. Bouldering is tough on the body and I reckon once past 25 or so you've got to start working the antagonists a bit otherwise you'll end up a fucked up hunchback.

Exactly what Adam said. If your beginning to get odd niggles from you shoulders, knees, hamstrings etc then I don't think there is any better way to try and correct it other than starting off with some yoga.

Going getting your ears waxed or have some warm bottles put onto your back and going to do jack!

[slackline]

Could always try 'Anti-gravity' yoga (the latest "fad" to hit New York apparently). 

[Fiend]

a joyless misery who's entire life seemed to revolve around finding new food groups to be avoided.  Her unquestioning acceptance of any alternative therapy essentially seemed to be a fear of modern life and a desire to appear different - as though an interesting personality could be assembled from the embrace of various quackeries. 

biggest lol today, so far.

[tommytwotone]

Nice one all, cheers for the responses. Definitely some stuff to act on here, both climbing-specific and not.

Climbingwise, I have been good in the last couple of years stretching before and after a climbing session, but I did spend the first 8-odd years of my climbing life using the 'swing arms around a bit, crack knuckles and start' style of warmup (if that). Also I've been guilty of not taking it quite so easy when getting back into it recently.

Non climbing wise, I have awful posture (I'm a non-lanky sloucher who works at a desk) so sure this ain't exactly helping either.

Thanks for the recommendations, the yoga / pilates seem like they're worth following up on, so I'll be getting that done while probably taking a layoff until my shoulder calms down. Was also going to jack my gym membership in but thinking perhaps I should keep that going and at least do some antagonistic stuff too.

[SA Chris]

a joyless misery who's entire life seemed to revolve around finding new food groups to be avoided.  Her unquestioning acceptance of any alternative therapy essentially seemed to be a fear of modern life and a desire to appear different - as though an interesting personality could be assembled from the embrace of various quackeries. 

:lol:biggest lol today, so far.

Quite. I know a few people like that. One is a "qualified" crystal healer, and has a crystal bed for people to lie down on while they are "healed" (more like cured of a large bank account).

There was some good stuff on a yoga thread recently. I had my first session yesterday after a lay off since before Xmas, was surprised at how much I struggled and what i had lost in ability from doing it twice a week before.

[i.munro]

Most "alternative" stuff is complete guff

The fact  that a therapy doesn't work better than placebo in a double blind trial doesn't mean that it doesn't work.
The thing is that the placebo effect is well documented & it works.
Therfore any therapy will make you better.

[SA Chris]

Anything can have a placebo effect if you want to believe in it. Some people believe drinking their own piss is good for them. Doesn't mean you need someone to take cash of your hands just because they claim to be qualified to tell you that it is good for you.

[webbo]

Most "alternative" stuff is complete guff

The fact  that a therapy doesn't work better than placebo in a double blind trial doesn't mean that it doesn't work.
The thing is that the placebo effect is well documented & it works.
Therfore any therapy will make you better.

in that case have you cured your elbow.

[slackline]

Some people believe drinking their own piss is good for them.

  You mean it isn't, what a damn waste of money that holistic therapy holiday was.  At least its still a cheap way of recycling the active ingredients in Fly Argaric 

[Johnny Brown]

I can vaguely recall a couple of single blind tests of accupuncture.  One used retractable needles to provide a control, the other used needles inserted by a proper accupuncturist into the wrong places for control (i.e. not in chi centres).  As I remember, in neither case was there any significant improvement over the control.

Funnily enough I remember watching a documentary with a test like this and there was a definite improvement over the control. 

from wikipedia;

For low back pain, a Cochrane review (2005) stated:

    Thirty-five RCTs covering 2861 patients were included in this systematic review. There is insufficient evidence to make any recommendations about acupuncture or dry-needling for acute low-back pain. For chronic low-back pain, results show that acupuncture is more effective for pain relief than no treatment or sham treatment, in measurements taken up to three months. The results also show that for chronic low-back pain, acupuncture is more effective for improving function than no treatment, in the short-term. Acupuncture is not more effective than other conventional and "alternative" treatments. When acupuncture is added to other conventional therapies, it relieves pain and improves function better than the conventional therapies alone. However, effects are only small. Dry-needling appears to be a useful adjunct to other therapies for chronic low-back pain.

Pretty much my experience - not miraculous but better than massage alone. Have also had it following finger tendon injury with results that were very impressive - have snapped three pulleys and happened to be having treatment at the time of one, had a couple of sessions of acupuncture on the finger and it healed in half the time. Ferret at least has had similar experinces, though he is a fan of reiki so you may wish to take with salt...

[moose]

One study into lower-back pain concluded that sham acupuncture and real acupuncture were near equally effective and both were far better than conventional treatment.  Although the cohort of patients was one whom conventional treatment had already failed for over 8 years.  "Real" acupuncture was indeed better than "sham" but the difference wasn't thought to be siginificant (48% improvement verses 44% - as opposed to 27% for the conventional treatment).

Interestingly, another study into arm pain compared different placebos and found that a sham-acupuncture placebo procedure out-performed a pill based placebo.  Seemingly the elaborateness of the placebo determines it's effectiveness.

A good summary with links to the original papers is here:

http://www.badscience.net/2007/09/acupuncture-and-back-pain-some-interesting-background-references/#more-540

[magpie]

I once went to a presentation on reflexology at an away day at my old work

See I'd disagree with that, I've had reflexology and the women doing it knew about things that had no outward physical symptoms, and they weren't all just good guesses.  So I would say there's something in it.   

I don't think I'm a joyless misery   

[Houdini]

... wizard's sack.

Sleeve, Moose.  Sleeve.  Though, if you prefer your medicine from the wizard's sack then that's cool too, big man.  

[guru]

subtle energy? oh yes, great topic. 
i took part on some good courses. my level is a little bit more than elementary (TEV 1; Energy Vibrational Therapy 1) but i will do something with dear NIBILE. some results.. in a couple of month.
more web infos:
http://www.subtleenergy.co.uk/index.htm