[duncan]

Significant rises in UK climbing standards occur in periods of economic hardship:

Brown and Whillans: post-war austerity. This increase in standards fizzled out in the later 50s and 60s when 'most of our people have never had it so good'.

Livesey, Fawcett, Allen and Bancroft: 1973-75 oil shocks, three day week.

Moffatt, Moon and the other dole climbers: 1980s collapse of traditional industries and manufacturing (Stu can blame the relative prosperity of the new Labour era for his "lost generation").

And now.

[SA Chris]

Given the current prospects, lots of people about to stratospheric.

[Bradders]

And now.

Lockdown gains?

[Somebody's Fool]

(Stu can blame the relative prosperity of the new Labour era for his "lost generation").

And now.

Wasn’t Walk of Life done while Labour were still in power?

[Wil]

Wasn’t Walk of Life done while Labour were still in power?

Same day as the financial crash, caused by overconfidence in inaccurate grading.

[ali k]

Wasn’t Walk of Life done while Labour were still in power?

That cutting edge E9 

[Will Hunt]

Wasn’t Walk of Life done while Labour were still in power?

Same day as the financial crash, caused by overconfidence in inaccurate grading.

Surely the crash came first and Pearson's grading was the world's first quantitative easing measure. Big if true.

[Wellsy]

I will say that when it comes to sponsorship, press releases etc, I can understand people's distaste.

That said, Will and Aidan being sponsored and supported to that level means they have to play that game a bit. Being sponsored to that level also however means that they get to be full time professional climbers with no requirement to spend their time and effort earning through having other jobs that might impinge their abilities

Basically would they be climbing at that level if they weren't allowed to by their financial situation and source of income? I'm guessing not. If we want world class, truly world class British Boulderers (and I do) we can't expect them to do it as a side job between a bit of rope access and tree surgery, training in a shed with no coach (much as we would love that very British aesthetic). A world class athlete these days needs to be a professional, and well, that means press releases and YouTube vids and agents and such.

[cowboyhat]

Basically would they be climbing at that level if they weren't allowed to by their financial situation and source of income? I'm guessing not. If we want world class, truly world class British Boulderers (and I do) we can't expect them to do it as a side job between a bit of rope access and tree surgery, training in a shed with no coach (much as we would love that very British aesthetic). A world class athlete these days needs to be a professional, and well, that means press releases and YouTube vids and agents and such.

Exactly.

All the crowing about Will having an agent is fucking boring. Young lad is trying to make a living, and the form that takes has changed from the 80s! and its evolving all the time. Whats the problem? Same people decrying an instagram post are both glued to it, and quick to say how social media is evil, ruining society etc, the good old dayzzzzz. I wish I could get all this info once a month in a magazine format, sign me up! I love staged photos with a rope around the arete etczzzzz

[Will Hunt]

I couldn't give a shit if people do press releases, provided they're a big hitter and not some wannabe. What I can't abide is the reporting that he's "got" the ascent rather than made the ascent/done the climb.

[cowboyhat]

Stu's 'lost generation' are roughly aged 40 - 50 now. He's right about it all, there are a load of reasons why and we have discussed it before.

We failed to progress standards, thats it really.

[Paul B]

Ned, Dan and others did a lot to de-stigmatise proper training and I think modern walls and the modern comp style have a large role to play in the current generation who are brute strong but are also flexible and know how to move.

This one has me puzzled a bit; de-stigmatise? That's not how I'd view their influence.

[mrjonathanr]

Stu's 'lost generation' are roughly aged 40 - 50 now. He's right about it all, there are a load of reasons why and we have discussed it before.

We failed to progress standards, thats it really.

Wouldn’t Dave Mac, Ben Bransby, James McHaffie all fit in that demographic? Gresh and Steve Mclure are in their early 50s and Ricky Bell is pushing 38 I think, so nearly there. Seems like trad climbers especially have moved the needle on what standards are now commonplace at the top.

[jwi]

Wouldn’t Dave Mac, Ben Bransby, James McHaffie all fit in that demographic? Gresh and Steve Mclure are in their early 50s and Ricky Bell is pushing 38 I think, so nearly there. Seems like trad climbers especially have moved the needle on what standards are now commonplace at the top.

It is significantly easier to be world class in something almost no country in the world don't particularly take part of... Scary single pitch trad has at most 10 climbers pushing the boat in Scandinavia, and about the same in Czech republic with surrounding countries at a guess. Maybe another 20 in the US?

[Droyd]

A world class athlete these days needs to be a professional, and well, that means press releases and YouTube vids and agents and such.

But doesn’t the fact that one stuck up an Instagram post saying he’d done it accompanied by a goofy-ass thumbs-up pic and the other put out a press release on multiple websites and sponsors’ social-media accounts and them getting the same level of coverage show that you don’t need all of that?

I think that climbers getting sponsorship in order to make the most of their potential is great in instances where that potential is for world-class performance, which is what we see with Will and Aidan (it’s less great when that climber is a bland, personality-less husk possessed only of the ability to grind on social media and decent screen presence, but that’s clearly a matter of taste). What’s more, I’m not even arguing that pro climbers have to have monk-like existences where they subsist on the bare minimum and just train and climb hard; if people are able to go beyond that and not just train and climb full-time and maximise their potential but enjoy some luxuries, then (for what little my opinion matters) they’ve earned that through hard work and talent. Top-tier footballers have Lamborghinis and no one accuses them of selling out, so as far as I’m concerned if Will and Aidan can not just eat and train but get the pro-climbing equivalent (a tricked-out Sprinter, maybe some Gucci crag slippers?) more power to them. It's always seemed to me that Jerry made the most of sponsorship not just to keep improving as a climber but to have the lifestyle he wanted - that ‘fast cars and birds’ schtick - and I have no critique of that.

But what’s gross to me is the idea that sponsors are profiting from things like Aidan and Will’s phenomenal efforts by reducing those efforts down to numbers and presenting a distorted picture of climbing where the value of an experience is directly proportional to the grade and contingent on success, and those grades and success can be, if not bought, then approached via money. ‘Look how good Will is, and if you want to be like Will then take a look at our shop!’ And maybe all of this has always been the case and I’m simply idealising the past, dreaming up some golden age in which pro climbers sought sponsorship purely to push the boundaries of the pursuit because of their ascetic devotion to climbing, and climbers in general weren’t grade- and success-obsessed little toads like we all are today. But it feels like in the ‘good old days’ pro climbers made money from their climbing achievements through direct sponsorship or setting up a gear company or wall or whatever else (and yes, loads of people bought Firés because they thought that the shoes would make a difference but were still crap), but today there’s this additional layer of people making money from climbing by treating it more as a commodity than a thing that they care about, and that leads others to do the same.

They have no interest in the unquantifiable aspects of climbing because you can’t monetise those bits, and so reduce everything down to what can be quantified - grades and success - and they do that not so that they can spend more time climbing themselves but because they want more money and influence. Which is how you end up with people getting personalised, periodised training plans while they’re still on their first pair of shoes and coaches picking out projects for their clients and people with shit footwork spending more time on a fingerboard than rock or plastic - because telling people that they need to get better and simply put time in and work at it themselves and go out with their mates and have fun won’t make you money. And because climbing is a commodity so too are crags, as evidenced by YT videos with people doing challenges on wet rock or flouting access restrictions to film, and that trickles down: people climb on wet rock rather than just leaving and ignore access arrangements that limit climbing to certain days of the week or specify numbers of climbers because the whole reason they’re there is for the big-number tick, and crags aren’t parts of the natural world to enjoy being at but places where you cash in the success vouchers that you ‘bought’ with the money you spent on training plans and gadgets and the fuel to get you to the crag on the day, as well as the effort you’ve put into training in the past.

Maybe this comes across as completely histrionic and is a million miles away from the topic of Bosi doing an amazing bit of climbing, but I genuinely believe that a lot of the problems we have with access being withdrawn, over-crowding, erosion, litter, chalk being plastered, and so on have their roots in this mentality. It's not something that I argue Bosi is somehow 'guilty' of, but I think that press releases, agents, and the focus on grades above anything else in the media on this ascent are symptomatic of that mentality, and will contribute to worsening these problems because of how they shape how people think about climbing.

[Wellsy]

I think that you are kind of idealising the past, or at least I think people would have always done what Will Bosi et al are doing now if they could have.

Yes it is commercialised, yes commercialisation/self-promotion/corporatisation is distasteful and I agree, but at the same time I don't think that what Will's people are doing is that egregious and again it is the flipside of the successes he's had; professional athletes require money, money comes from businesses, businesses are commercial by nature.

If you'd rather British climbers were more amateur and less corporate then I can appreciate your position but I don't think it will happen, I don't think that the athletes involved necessarily want it either as of course what they want is to be able to have a lifestyle that maximises their performance.

Histrionic would be a strong and unfair word but I dunno. It feels like a big reaction for what is basically "I waited 24 hours to announce this so my sponsors could get in on it" I mean that doesn't seem too agonising a thing to watch happen to me. I respect your position but I think it's pining for a culture that never really exists through railing against a culture which in this particular case doesn't seem that offensive.

Anyway well done to Mr Bosi for his success on slightly higher, harder Weedkiller Traverse

[Will Hunt]

A world class athlete these days needs to be a professional, and well, that means press releases and YouTube vids and agents and such.

But doesn’t the fact that one stuck up an Instagram post saying he’d done it accompanied by a goofy-ass thumbs-up pic and the other put out a press release on multiple websites and sponsors’ social-media accounts and them getting the same level of coverage show that you don’t need all of that?

I'm telling you, the only way to figure out whether it's worth having a PR department is to compare what they drive to the crag and who they can pull at the Works party.
Have you seen that train-spotting bloke on Instagram? Have you seen his girlfriend? As one poster on this forum said "when you've got 1.5m followers on Instagram you can date whoever you like".

[Stu Littlefair]

I hate having a job - it means every time I come on here the discussion has moved on too far. If only I had more time to concentrate on climbing and become world class post shit on the internet.

Some random brain-farts.

But doesn’t the fact that one stuck up an Instagram post saying he’d done it accompanied by a goofy-ass thumbs-up pic and the other put out a press release on multiple websites and sponsors’ social-media accounts and them getting the same level of coverage show that you don’t need all of that?

The target audience for organised PR ain't forums of climbing obsessives. Ask yourself how many times Aidan has been on breakfast TV.

Ned, Dan and others did a lot to de-stigmatise proper training and I think modern walls and the modern comp style have a large role to play in the current generation who are brute strong but are also flexible and know how to move.

This one has me puzzled a bit; de-stigmatise? That's not how I'd view their influence.

I think what I mean is that they popularised fingerboards, which is a gateway drug into proper training (e.g aero cap).

[cowboyhat]

Stu's 'lost generation' are roughly aged 40 - 50 now. He's right about it all, there are a load of reasons why and we have discussed it before.

We failed to progress standards, thats it really.

Wouldn’t Dave Mac, Ben Bransby, James McHaffie all fit in that demographic?  Seems like trad climbers especially have moved the needle on what standards are now commonplace at the top.

Possibly those three in that one narrow area, yes there was progress.

[duncan]

And now.

Lockdown gains?

Bigger picture. Osborne/Brexit/Covid/Kwarteng cumulatively tanking the UK economy versus gradual increase in relative performance of UK climbers from the early 2010s to now (Aidan and Will crushing). If this relationship continues to hold we have more hard climbing to look forward to.

This is all mostly tongue-in-cheek but it is easier to dedicate yourself to a useless and poorly-paid activity when life's other possibilities are less rewarding [opportunity cost - thanks to seankenny].

Wasn’t Walk of Life done while Labour were still in power?

An 8a+ was considered hard? I rest my case! (sorry Keen Youth)

Wasn’t Walk of Life done while Labour were still in power?

Same day as the financial crash, caused by overconfidence in inaccurate grading.

[owensum]

Maybe this comes across as completely histrionic and is a million miles away from the topic of Bosi doing an amazing bit of climbing, but I genuinely believe that a lot of the problems we have with access being withdrawn, over-crowding, erosion, litter, chalk being plastered, and so on have their roots in this mentality. It's not something that I argue Bosi is somehow 'guilty' of, but I think that press releases, agents, and the focus on grades above anything else in the media on this ascent are symptomatic of that mentality, and will contribute to worsening these problems because of how they shape how people think about climbing.

I definitely agree that this grade chasing mentality causes many problems at lower levels of the "sport" (do we have to call it that?). Ethics get eroded in the process—all these small "hacks" add up over time until you feel like the original challenge has been well and truly cheated around (stacking pads, obnoxious tick marks, damaging rock drying methods, contriving easier exits, etc. all get normalized instead of vilified). So the ultimate aim becomes to tick the highest possible number with the minimum amount of actual strength and talent. What happened to just having fun?

I think this objective of climbing the highest possible grade as the divine purpose of climbing may appear common-sensical these days, but I'm not sure it is. I feel like it's a capitalistic mindset to achieve quantifiable goals that has been ratcheted up over generations to the fever pitch state we're in now where nothing else apparently matters (in life in general too).

[Will Hunt]

If Instagram followers is the currency of this game then Bosi has 30.6k and Aidan has 24.8k. The difference is 5.8k followers. That is 1 x Ethan Walker (5,886 followers) of difference.

Looking at Ethan Walker's sponsors we can determine that Band of Birds' services are worth an Elliot Brown watch and a flask.

[petejh]

So the ultimate aim becomes to tick the highest possible number with the minimum amount of actual strength and talent.

You say this as if there's something wrong. It's been my guiding principle for life.

[SA Chris]

So the ultimate aim becomes to tick the highest possible number with the minimum amount of actual strength and talent. What happened to just having fun?

I think this objective of climbing the highest possible grade as the divine purpose of climbing may appear common-sensical these days, but I'm not sure it is. I feel like it's a capitalistic mindset to achieve quantifiable goals that has been ratcheted up over generations to the fever pitch state we're in now where nothing else apparently matters (in life in general too).

Maybe they are just climbing the hardest grade they can because they like a challenge, because they find it fun, and it makes them happy??

[andy moles]

Wouldn’t Dave Mac, Ben Bransby, James McHaffie all fit in that demographic? Gresh and Steve Mclure are in their early 50s and Ricky Bell is pushing 38 I think, so nearly there. Seems like trad climbers especially have moved the needle on what standards are now commonplace at the top.

It is significantly easier to be world class in something almost no country in the world don't particularly take part of...

Except it's translated to impressive performances on internationally coveted things like El Cap too.