[Kingy]

sorry i mean - the RF is a heel-toe to come into the undercut with LH - rather than a toe lock.
If you look at the BD rail under the lip, on the back wall level with it (in horizontal terms) is all the stuff you use for feet on BD and BF.. the higher section of this (above the ledgy bit but still on the back wall) has a flake thingy (facing R and slightly down) which it's possible to get a bit of a heel-toe/toe hook thang with your RF (I had to put my LF on a little edge on the corner of this section of rock to get the toe to work).
Once you have LH undercut, take the RF out, swap to where my LF was and LF down low on ledgey stuff back further L, dropping R knee, thus enabling you to reach to the BD rail easy peasy.
(The bit you use to drop knee on is almost on the vague arete on the higher section of rock, furthest out from the back wall but quite high.. I use it on BD/BF to release the swing with as little momentum as possible (as it's further out) but i'm not sure how to explain better than that. There's a reason why I spend my day playing with numbers rather than explaining things!

Cool thanks again, you can't get more specific than that! I will have another look next visit. Also, I just realised that I should be reaching for the BD rail rather than the jug on the BD sit start according to this 'no jugs at the back' rule 

[dave]

everyone is right in saying that the submergence jug is "out" for hands.

dave's beta: from the position of having LH on the nice sloperpinch on submergence/blind drunk and RF heel toe on the jug, get the BlindDate lip foothold with right hand, then LF on the big ledge foothold under the jug, then take RF out of the heel toe and kick it miles out right to the ledge at the base of blind date (hard kick move, very flexibilty and leg length dependant), then twist dropknee under into the sharp undercut with LH, then go with RH for the sharp crimp in the roof near blindDate, then bump LF onto a little smear foorhold about 12" right of the previous ledge, this enables you to go into the blinddate rail hold for RH, then jubs a goodun.

[Dolly]

mike lea once told me he matched the undercut - MONSTA!

Keith just told me that he did it like that and he's got biig fingers.
Anyone else done it like that ?
Knee bar didn't work for me and I cant seem to get my left foot up high enough to put on the Submergence starting jig

[dave]

You can also do it with the same hand sequence as my vid/s but instead of putting the kneebar and/or heel in you put right foot out right on the ledge below blind date start and do a disbelief slap to the roof rail, just holding the lip sloper with LH.

I've also done it with a really longlegged twisty beta where you get the blind date lip foothold with RH, cross under with LH to the undercut, kick RF way outright to the BD ledge the twist and pull out of the undercut to the roof rail via intermediate roof crimp. Probably one for six footers only.

[Dolly]

OK thanks. Definitely more things to try

[cofe]

I'd try the knee again Dolly. I nearly gave up as it felt impossible that way, but then it suddenly feels quite steady when you suss it.

[Dolly]

Ok thanks. I'll give it another go. Just felt as though my leg needed to be an inch longer

[Scouse D]

I agree with cofe, we bth found it hard to use until it just clicked