[Steve R]

What does the Rule Book say about starting this problem?  We were starting left hand on the polished crimp right hand on the sloper a little to the right, which felt potentially 1 move in to the problem if you're of a strict disposition.  Guess it would make little difference to overall difficulty?  Though could be wrong as none of us actually did that move!  Anyway, had some nice moves on it I thought and don't usually dig going sideways that much.  Whilst about it, what's the score number wise?  Think it's 7b+ in ru's but just seen it's given V10 in BMC definititve....?

[uptown]

What does the Rule Book say about starting this problem?  We were starting left hand on the polished crimp right hand on the sloper a little to the right, which felt potentially 1 move in to the problem if you're of a strict disposition.  Guess it would make little difference to overall difficulty?  Though could be wrong as none of us actually did that move!  Anyway, had some nice moves on it I thought and don't usually dig going sideways that much.  Whilst about it, what's the score number wise?  Think it's 7b+ in ru's but just seen it's given V10 in BMC definititve....?

Zaff started it on the last two submergence holds. I don't know how Jason did it. 7b+/7c seems thereabouts from what I remember. Good problem. More people should be going sideways.

[Bonjoy]

Zaff also stayed on the lip right to the end making the last move the (reachy)crux. The probably more sensible drop down to undercuts that most people do nowadays renderers it a bit easier than the original 7b+/7c

[Steve R]

Zaff started it on the last two submergence holds.

Cool, that's how we started so I guess I'll award myself a tick.  Just leaves more or less everything else on this block to do then!

[abarro81]

Whilst we're on the topic (and everything else is covered n snow, and being inspired by Dan's talk of link-ups at the foundry)... How hard do peeps think blind ali into blind date would be? Long live link ups!

[Drew]

Long live link ups!

  Link ups

Agree to disagree

[uptown]

Whilst we're on the topic (and everything else is covered n snow, and being inspired by Dan's talk of link-ups at the foundry)... How hard do peeps think blind ali into blind date would be? Long live link ups!

I remember Iain doing this back in the day - 7c/7c+ maybe?
My old link-up project was Blind Ali - Blind fig - lip reverse - arete slopers finish. Anyone done this yet? 8a I reckoned.

Agree to disagree

At least you're a fan of sideways travel?

[uptown]

Link ups

Actually I can see your point looking at that - Rant on should know better.

[dave]

i had a go at the blind ali-date link a couple of years ago, fell off matching the slots on blind date. not had a go since but i rate it as good quality, probably 7c or 7c+ i thought.

[Andy B]

Zaff also stayed on the lip right to the end making the last move the (reachy)crux. The probably more sensible drop down to undercuts that most people do nowadays renderers it a bit easier than the original 7b+/7c

I've done this both ways, and it doesn't make a great deal of difference. Staying on the lip isn't massively reachy, and would only make a significant difference if your arms are too short to be able to tuck in under the roof and get your weight over the big ledge at the back. You are virtually in the same body position either way. I've talked about this with you previously bonjoy, glad to see you were paying attention 

[Kingy]

I saw the mighty Garth Millar attempting to link Blind Ali into Blind Fig. Thankfully, he had the good grace to fail after the sloper match but looked pretty damn solid all the way along!

[dave]

another good potential linkup would be reverse blind ali into submergence. would suit almscliff types too cos its mainly downhill.

[uptown]

I'm on my way...

[Kingy]

Or you could do Blind Ali into Blind Date and reverse Ron's Traverse 

[uptown]

I saw the mighty Garth Millar attempting to link Blind Ali into Blind Fig.

Can we call this "slaughtering the fig of ignorance"?

[Kingy]

Can we call this "slaughtering the fig of ignorance"?

Sure, I don't see why not!

[dave]

good name. i'd have been tempted by Figour Mortis.

[Bonjoy]

Zaff also stayed on the lip right to the end making the last move the (reachy)crux. The probably more sensible drop down to undercuts that most people do nowadays renderers it a bit easier than the original 7b+/7c

I've done this both ways, and it doesn't make a great deal of difference. Staying on the lip isn't massively reachy, and would only make a significant difference if your arms are too short to be able to tuck in under the roof and get your weight over the big ledge at the back. You are virtually in the same body position either way. I've talked about this with you previously bonjoy, glad to see you were paying attention 

I only said a bit easier. For what it's worth it seems more soft 7b+ to me

[dave]

i thought bind ali one of the harder 7b+s going. certainly a fair bit harder then either blind date or submergence.

[Stu Littlefair]

Oh no! The font grade us clearly broken. I day we replace it with a grade which reflects how far from the cafe you are, and how many apples you should bring

[dave]

we should maybe give it a grade that indicates if it was rotated 90degrees to form an upright arete what E-grade it would get if it that arete formed the crux section of a route.. i'd give it E4 (+).

[T_B]

I'd never heard of Blind Ali until recently and couldn't work it out from the guidebook.

So just to confirm is it..

Start on the two polished crimps of Submergence
Use the open-handed sloper lip pinch to reach back to the jug at the start of Submergence
Use that dead sharp undercut and painful heelhook to reach the crimpy rail that you start Bling Date with your left hand on
Somehow get from here into the crack by midget-ledge shuffling?

I've done Blind Date from the Submergence jug which is a fab and logical problem, though I'm not sure it makes Blind Date that much harder?

[cofe]

i'd been told you don't reach back to the submergence jug, you just use it for feet. the idea being to keep your hands on and around the lip. feels hard for 7b+.

[dave]

it would be about 7b using the submergence jugs for hands - its essential to eliminate this cos otherwise you would also use all the big jugs down under blind date too, and then you're doing a 7a+. like tom says, doing blind date from the submergence jug doesn't add that much, so if you did the lip traverse into this you're doing 1 tricky move off the deck, easy moves with a heeltoe in, into a "doesn't add that much" part instead of the crux. I think you have to accept some eliminateness of these traverses, same on the slots traverse it'd be easier to use the remergence roof crimp or the lip holds but you're losing the line then.

[Andy B]

Everyone I've seen do or try Blind Ali has not reached back to the Submergance starting jug.
You can reach the Blind Date rail by either crossing under from the lip to the undercut then out to the rail, or by holding the lip with your left and flicking out to the rail from there. (a lush move).

[dave]

mike lea once told me he matched the undercut - MONSTA!

[T_B]

Everyone I've seen do or try Blind Ali has not reached back to the Submergance starting jug.
You can reach the Blind Date rail by either crossing under from the lip to the undercut then out to the rail, or by holding the lip with your left and flicking out to the rail from there. (a lush move).

Cool, understood. Funny that I've never seen anyone do this problem despite spending far too much time on this chunk of rock 

[Johnny Brown]

Ditto. I've never even tried it. Could it be because traversing is log?

[uptown]

Ditto. I've never even tried it. Could it be because traversing is log?

You sound like Dense. You miss out on some of the best holds and moves on grit by not going sideways. Try it, you might like it.

[Nigel]

Ditto. I've never even tried it. Could it be because traversing is log?

Could it be because you're log at traversing?

No-one ever became king of remergence by NOT doing this problem.

[Johnny Brown]

Who the fuck would want to be King of Remergence? What a hollow crown that would be.

[nik at work]

Aren't all crowns hollow? Otherwise they wouldn't sit on the head properly...

[Johnny Brown]

Of course. But the Remergence crown would be hollow inside as well.

[cofe]

it would be like wearing a dog-egg omelette.

[abarro81]

certainly a fair bit harder then either blind date or submergence.

I would concur.

I day we replace it with a grade which reflects how far from the cafe you are, and how many apples you should bring

  having had no apples with me, my opinions on the grade probably aren't really that valid.. Must go back and try the apple beta.

[dave]

no tick unless you're packing a cox and a pink lady.

[Bonjoy]

it would be like wearing a dog-egg omelette.

You made me spit on my screen

[Andy B]

Who the fuck would want to be King of Remergence?

Me.

Remergence is one of the best bouldering buttresses in the peak. It's even better than minus ten!

[dave]

its certainly the best in yorkshire.

[andy popp]

the Remergence crown would be hollow inside as well.

I'd like to see something that was hollow on the outside

[dave]

maybe JB is operating in some kinda curved spacetime shit.

[Nigel]

Who the fuck would want to be King of Remergence? What a hollow crown that would be.

Ooops sorry I forgot, can't have anyone seeing the bald patch!

"Fully covered crown for Mr Brown please!"

[Kingy]

What's the dealio with the last move folks? I have read all the above replies but when I was trying it for the first time yesterday, I couldn't seem to put together a workable sequence to reach right for the big sidepull for the RH under Blind Date. The choices for this last bit seemed to be:

1. Reach down to Submergence starting jug with RH then reach for Blind Date/Fig foothold with LH, snatch in to the razor undercut with RH then get RH onto big ledge and fling for the above mentioned sidepull.

2. Instead of the Blind Date foothold, hold the poorer sloper to its right with LH instead, thereby lessening the reach (didn't work for me).

3. Match the grim razor undercut and reach rightwards to sidepull (also didn't work for me, bit of a left wrist tweaker so keen to avoid this way).

Do you use a left heel/toe cam on the submergence jug to make the reach? If so I am f*cked as I am supposed to be avoiding these moves due to left hamstring issues.

Cheers

[T_B]

This advice is by no means definitive as I haven't done this problem but have been watching Rach try it a bit.

You should basically reverse the moves on the pinchy slopers of submergence right of the initial polished crimp, stretching out to use a heel toe with your right foot in the sub jug, allowing you to reach the sharp undercut with your r hand. i think you then sort your feet out and most likely get your left foot on the starting jug of submergence to then get facing the right way and be able to slap your left hand along and thence to the blind date foothold.

reaching the big jug with your hand is a defo no no.

[Kingy]

Nice one cheers. Interesting about reaching down to the jug being a faux pas. Does this mean that the guide is not correct in saying that the holds under the roof are in?

Getting the Blind Date foothold with my LH is no problem, its the next move to the Blind Date starting sidepull which has got me stumped.

[dobbin]

I went down to the big jug with my hand, claimed the problem but made the mistake of explaining what I did. Only to be shot down in flames for my sequence. Me and my big mouth. Anyway, suffice to say - the jug is not in for hands.

[abarro81]

By 'holds under the roof' I think it means the crimps, undercut and rail but nothing on the back wall. We were trying(/doing, but not me) getting RH on lip or small crimp just under lip then RF toe lock out right on the flake on the back wall where BD starts, come to undercut with LH, bring RF out, drop knee on edge near where it was and then the reach to the rail is easy (cutting the undercut is the crux with this way)

[Kingy]

Great thanks for the info guys. I will make sure I don't touch that jug with hands, shame its a bit eliminate.

We were trying(/doing, but not me) getting RH on lip or small crimp just under lip then RF toe lock out right on the flake on the back wall where BD starts, come to undercut with LH, bring RF out, drop knee on edge near where it was and then the reach to the rail is easy (cutting the undercut is the crux with this way)

This method sounds good but I am a little unclear on where toe lock for the RF is that you mention. I don't remember a toe lock possibility on the Blind Date flake, ie. the same hold that you are reaching for with the RH off the razor undercut? Do you mean a toe hook as opposed to a toe lock or possibly putting a toe lock in the submergence starting jug instead?

Also, where exactly in the drop knee? on the big ledge or some other foothold? Thanks again for the beta!

[nik at work]

Just to add to the mix I think I got the BD rail with my RH with my LH on the sharp undercut. Had a RF far out right and twisted into it making the reach to the rail pretty easy. In fact re-reading sounds like I did it the same as Mr 81. So I'll shut up now. But agree that getting the undercut was the hard bit rather than reaching the rail.

[abarro81]

sorry i mean - the RF is a heel-toe to come into the undercut with LH - rather than a toe lock.
If you look at the BD rail under the lip, on the back wall level with it (in horizontal terms) is all the stuff you use for feet on BD and BF.. the higher section of this (above the ledgy bit but still on the back wall) has a flake thingy (facing R and slightly down) which it's possible to get a bit of a heel-toe/toe hook thang with your RF (I had to put my LF on a little edge on the corner of this section of rock to get the toe to work).
Once you have LH undercut, take the RF out, swap to where my LF was and LF down low on ledgey stuff back further L, dropping R knee, thus enabling you to reach to the BD rail easy peasy.
(The bit you use to drop knee on is almost on the vague arete on the higher section of rock, furthest out from the back wall but quite high.. I use it on BD/BF to release the swing with as little momentum as possible (as it's further out) but i'm not sure how to explain better than that. There's a reason why I spend my day playing with numbers rather than explaining things!

[Kingy]

sorry i mean - the RF is a heel-toe to come into the undercut with LH - rather than a toe lock.
If you look at the BD rail under the lip, on the back wall level with it (in horizontal terms) is all the stuff you use for feet on BD and BF.. the higher section of this (above the ledgy bit but still on the back wall) has a flake thingy (facing R and slightly down) which it's possible to get a bit of a heel-toe/toe hook thang with your RF (I had to put my LF on a little edge on the corner of this section of rock to get the toe to work).
Once you have LH undercut, take the RF out, swap to where my LF was and LF down low on ledgey stuff back further L, dropping R knee, thus enabling you to reach to the BD rail easy peasy.
(The bit you use to drop knee on is almost on the vague arete on the higher section of rock, furthest out from the back wall but quite high.. I use it on BD/BF to release the swing with as little momentum as possible (as it's further out) but i'm not sure how to explain better than that. There's a reason why I spend my day playing with numbers rather than explaining things!

Cool thanks again, you can't get more specific than that! I will have another look next visit. Also, I just realised that I should be reaching for the BD rail rather than the jug on the BD sit start according to this 'no jugs at the back' rule 

[dave]

everyone is right in saying that the submergence jug is "out" for hands.

dave's beta: from the position of having LH on the nice sloperpinch on submergence/blind drunk and RF heel toe on the jug, get the BlindDate lip foothold with right hand, then LF on the big ledge foothold under the jug, then take RF out of the heel toe and kick it miles out right to the ledge at the base of blind date (hard kick move, very flexibilty and leg length dependant), then twist dropknee under into the sharp undercut with LH, then go with RH for the sharp crimp in the roof near blindDate, then bump LF onto a little smear foorhold about 12" right of the previous ledge, this enables you to go into the blinddate rail hold for RH, then jubs a goodun.

[Dolly]

mike lea once told me he matched the undercut - MONSTA!

Keith just told me that he did it like that and he's got biig fingers.
Anyone else done it like that ?
Knee bar didn't work for me and I cant seem to get my left foot up high enough to put on the Submergence starting jig

[dave]

You can also do it with the same hand sequence as my vid/s but instead of putting the kneebar and/or heel in you put right foot out right on the ledge below blind date start and do a disbelief slap to the roof rail, just holding the lip sloper with LH.

I've also done it with a really longlegged twisty beta where you get the blind date lip foothold with RH, cross under with LH to the undercut, kick RF way outright to the BD ledge the twist and pull out of the undercut to the roof rail via intermediate roof crimp. Probably one for six footers only.

[Dolly]

OK thanks. Definitely more things to try

[cofe]

I'd try the knee again Dolly. I nearly gave up as it felt impossible that way, but then it suddenly feels quite steady when you suss it.

[Dolly]

Ok thanks. I'll give it another go. Just felt as though my leg needed to be an inch longer

[Scouse D]

I agree with cofe, we bth found it hard to use until it just clicked