[Tim Broughtonshaw]

Hi,

Starting this problem from the left handside of the shelf off the rubbish slopers.... is the rose move at the end as shown in ru's guide necessary for the 7A+ tick? I suspected so but just wondering on the general consensus.

Cheers
Tim

[GCW]

Probably not, you can match.
But then it wouldn't be Rose and the Self-Employed Business man, I suppose.

[Andy B]

I thought that doing that bit as a rose move wasn't obligatory, but also that the problem starts on the crimps in the middle of the shelf, rather than the left end.

[Tim Broughtonshaw]

reason i ask is i havent done many grit 7's at all so i hold no real basis for comparision. and i heard that this problem used to start on the right hand side of the ledge but now that it is accepted to  start on the left. since the moves on the right hand side of the ledge dont look trivial and the rose move is nails, it would seem obvious that  there would be differences in the grade if certain sequences were done or eliminated.  Did the green traverse today before i tried this and even though i didnt do the R.a.S.E.B. (skin, tired and end of day) it seems about the same level of difficulty to do it from the handing slopers to the finishing flake...without doing it with a rose but matching.


Cheers
Tim

[Tim Broughtonshaw]

I thought that doing that bit as a rose move wasn't obligatory, but also that the problem starts on the crimps in the middle of the shelf, rather than the left end.

ahh it all becomes clearer...erm or not ...

cheers

tim

[Andy B]

I can write more confidently if you like.

Doing that bit as a rose move definitely isn't obligatory, but the problem definitely starts on the crimps in the middle of the shelf, rather than the left end.

[GCW]

I definitely thought it started from the left end of the shelf.

Ref!!  We need a ruling.

[dave]

nah it deffo starts from the crimps in the middle. i'll go to the foot of our stairs if i'm wrong.

[nik at work]

I think Jerrys starts from the middle of the shelf and Rose starts from the left end (although I have no great basis for this).
All disputes will be settled by THUMB WAR.

[Andy B]

Have you seen dave's thumbs? I feel confident of being on the winning side on this one.

[dave]

rockfax and the BMC guides say you start on the good holds. ru's guide just says "from the slopers at the end of the shelf blah blah blah". so thats 2:1 in favour. plus i'm sure the actual easiest way of going from the shelf to the next hold is from using one of the crimps rather than those slopers anyhow.

[Andy B]

Ru's guide says "An easier alternative to Jerry's Traverse. From the end of the shelf..." Which I read as follow Jerry's to the end of the shelf, then...

That's 3:0 I reckon.

[dave]

exactly. athough you can see how it c0ould be read wrongly.

[Tim Broughtonshaw]

baring im mind i have no historical knowledge of this and am just reading from the guides......

ru's guide describes jerry's traverse as starting from the centre of the ledge i.e. the crimps, and the rockfax older guide says jerry's starts traverseing the ledge/shelf from the right to the left, with the diagram agreeing.

the rose and self employed businessman looks to start from the slopers on the left of the traverse based on ru's diagram and therefore the description saying end of the ledge would suggest the left end, the rockfax describes as per jerry's i.e. from the right hand side of the ledge, with the diagram further supporting this. 

with regards to the rose move ru's guide suggests your finish with an unnecessary rose move (not sure if comedy description  as a match is easier, or simply describing that you dont need to do the rose for the grade)

the rockfax doesnt mention the rose but says you finish one move round the corner from the jugs which i think are the ones which are prt of the rose you are reaching with your right hand. 

so not quite so clear with the various guides and diagrams.  guess just wanted some rough ukb guru consensus as not done a grid 7a+ before so would be good to get one which is on the grade, specially as from the left of the shelf to the finishing jug without dogin a rose is significantly easier than from the right of the ledge finishing in a rose. a grade difference? between the two? or more? or the same grade but a little harder?

Cheers
tim

[GCW]

plus i'm sure the actual easiest way of going from the shelf to the next hold is from using one of the crimps rather than those slopers anyhow.

Sounds like you bin doing the easier variation there Dave.  The proper version starts off the left end of the shelf, but only the farthest left bit.  If you put your hand more than 3" from the left end of the shelf you're cheating.

Starting from the right end of the shelf adds little difficulty, although it's more sapping than you might think.

[dave]

i ain't been doing any version, please credit me with more aesthetic nouse than this! I just know where the problem starts.

[Kingy]

http://ukbouldering.com/board/index.php/topic,10186.0.html

Hi Tim, the above link may be of some assistance.

My understanding is that the problem starts at the same place as Jerry's (ie. at the middle of the shelf on the crimps) and that you do not have to do the Rose move for the tick but earn bonus style points if you do. Also, if it is possible to go straight from the crimps to the holds above the shelf without traversing leftwards to the slopers at the end of the shelf first then fair comment, this is still the problem!

[Tim Broughtonshaw]

hows about 7A for the left hand side slopers start with no rose move. 7A+ from starting from the middle with no rose and 7B from the right hand side with the rose move? or are the additions not enough to bump up the grades    ... whatever. 

[Johnny Brown]

In al's original ote guide the ledge is labelled 'A', and both Rose and Jerry's start with 'A'[r-l], etc.

Subsequent guides just copied this whilst introducing errors to feign originality and avoid infringing copyright.

[Kingy]

I would probably not call it a tick from the left hand end of the shelf, although I would not disagree with your grade assessment. As for the Rose move, its just for fun, and prob does not warrant an extra grade.

[Jaspersharpe]

Subsequent guides just copied this whilst introducing errors to feign originality and avoid infringing copyright.

Ha ha!

[r-man]

hows about 7A for the left hand side slopers start with no rose move. 7A+ from starting from the middle with no rose and 7B from the right hand side with the rose move? or are the additions not enough to bump up the grades    ... whatever. 

From the left hand side slopers, rose or no, you're still doing a tricky 7a+. Start elsewhere if you like, and do the rose move if you want, I can't imagine it making much difference to the grade.

[Kingy]

Most folk I've seen start Jerry's/Rose from the middle of the shelf. Its only Ben's extension that traverses the full shelf 'A' from r-l. Whether that is originally how the problems were done god only knows.

[Tim Broughtonshaw]

hows about 7A for the left hand side slopers start with no rose move. 7A+ from starting from the middle with no rose and 7B from the right hand side with the rose move? or are the additions not enough to bump up the grades    ... whatever. 

From the left hand side slopers, rose or no, you're still doing a tricky 7a+. Start elsewhere if you like, and do the rose move if you want, I can't imagine it making much difference to the grade.

again i should statr with i have little grit 7A experience. However i had previously done the green traverse that day and although i didnt quite finish the rose.... from the left hand slopers to the end (without the rose move) i got to the penultimate hold where the match was and it certinaly didnt feel any harder than the green traverse.

I would probably not call it a tick from the left hand end of the shelf, although I would not disagree with your grade assessment. As for the Rose move, its just for fun, and prob does not warrant an extra grade.

surely doing the move or not makes a difference to the grade? its certainly not easy there's a broughton 6b (should be 6b+) on sector 1 which goes 5,14, J. not done that move yet but its nails, doing it with a 7A+'s worth of pump would be not an insignificant amount of difficulty?

Cheers
Tim

[Kingy]

surely doing the move or not makes a difference to the grade? its certainly not easy there's a broughton 6b (should be 6b+) on sector 1 which goes 5,14, J. not done that move yet but its nails, doing it with a 7A+'s worth of pump would be not an insignificant amount of difficulty?

Hi Tim, I am not famililar with that temple problem, I will check it out next time I am down. When I refer to the Rose move not adding anything gradewise, I mean in comparison to the problem done to the final flake with the match method on the final crimp. I am sure doing the Rose move instead of the match adds difficulty but not enough to warrant 7b in my opinion.