[Kingy]

Is there any clear conversion scale for equating into French grades the font grade of extended boulder problems or routes with boulder problem starts and much easier finishes or has such a scale not yet been devised? I think its useful to give French grades to grit routes and thus to give them an E grade according to the scale discussed on the other chuffing thread.

What French grade would an extended Font 8a boulder problem into a much easier E3 finish for example get? F8c, F8b+ or F8b...I have no idea but maybe F8c? I know that the font grades of the cruxes of short bouldery F8b's with much easier climbing before or after tends to be around Font 7c eg. Magnetic Fields, Revelations so would Font 7c+ equate to F8b+ and Font 8a to F8c? If so then the following list may be useful....or not, as the case may be!

Font 7b equates to the crux of a short F8a
Font 7b+ equates to the crux of a short F8a+
Font 7c equates to the crux of a short F8b
Font 7c+ equates to the crux of a short F8b+
Font 8a equates to the crux of a short F8c
Font 8a+ equates to the crux of a short F8c+
Font 8b equates to the crux of a short F9a

This may be totally wrong or need substantial tweaking but I was just curious as to whether it was anywhere near the mark. It may even be impossible to quantify?

[mrjonathanr]

Seems right enough to me at the bottom end.. the upper ones would be a logical continuation.
'the burly one' still ain't font 7b tho!

[Ru]

Revelations start is font 7c+/french 8a+/b.
Pump up the Power is font 7c+/french 8a+
Three Spheres is maybe font 8a/french 8b

I always thought font 8a = 8b french ish, or maybe 8b/+ french.

[Paul B]

I'm curious to how you think the Dangerous Bro's fits on your scale? Not the best example as you flashed it but I'd say its definately harder than Fnt 7b.

Personally I can't really see you coming to a consensus. Take the Sissy, Dangerous Bro's and Hot Fun Closing as 3 routes of the same grade at the same crag, all short, all cruxy but completely differing in Font grades (IMO).

[Kingy]

Yes that makes sense, how about i throw in a few more examples into the mix, please correct me if I am wrong:

Hubble   Font 8b/8b+ - F8c+/F9a
The Bastard   Font 8a+/8b - F8c/8c+
Jehovakil   Font 8a - F8b+
Barracuda   Font 7c+ - F8b
Entree   Font 7b+ - F8a

Font 8a has been given F8b+ here and Font 7c+ given F8b...I guess it in not an exact science.

As an aside, for Broughton regulars, the 'Burly One' seems to suffer from indoor undergrading in my view and is never F8a in a month of sundays. I would say the whole link is Font 7c (2 font 7b's back to back?) but with no rest inbetween. According to the chart, it should be F8b but i would probably say F8a+ as it is not a short route and is straying into power enduro territory where a separate table would be needed....still can't tick the bastard though!!

Paul, DB is an interesting one, I would say it was Font 7b+ for the whole sequence.... damn thats put a spanner in the works! My assessment of the 3 routes you mention would be:

Dangerous Brothers   Font 7b+ - F8a
The Sissy   Font 7b - F8a
Hot Fun Closing Font 7b (or Font 7b+ via hard way or Font 7c via original way) - F8a

These routes are all pretty short but have some power endurance involved. In particular, I found the Sissy the most sustained and least cruxy of the 3 but perhaps the hardest to actually climb overall? i guess this is where the system breaks down a bit, where power enduro comes into the equation. Perhaps the table only works for extremely short routes like Hubble that are in effect honorary boulder problems.

[IanP]

As an aside, for Broughton regulars, the 'Burly One' seems to suffer from indoor undergrading in my view and is never F8a in a month of sundays. I would say the whole link is Font 7c (2 font 7b's back to back?) but with no rest inbetween. According to the chart, it should be F8b but i would probably say F8a+ as it is not a short route and is straying into power enduro territory where a separate table would be needed

Glad you say that Ted (not that I'm likely to get involved with it) - if the 'Burly One' is 8a then I think I'll give up on my efforts to ever get that elusive 8a tick 

[Pantontino]

In North Wales we've always gone with Font 7b+ = F8a, Font 7c = F8a+ etc, but then the assumption was that you were talking about the whole route and not just the crux. Obviously this only really works with long problems.

When I first moved to Llanberis in '96 people used to talk about Rock Attrocity and The Barrel trav being F8b. Then that changed and people decided that RA was only F8a+ and too short for comparison anyway. I think the F8b grade for the Barrel must have been for the eliminate version (i.e. no undercuts at the end). It gets F7b+ now for the anything goes version.

[Kingy]

In North Wales we've always gone with Font 7b+ = F8a, Font 7c = F8a+ etc, but then the assumption was that you were talking about the whole route and not just the crux. Obviously this only really works with long problems.

Yes I agree with Rockatrocity being F8a+, it is still quite short, only 8 moves long. So, Font 7c= F8a+. There does seem to be a murky area where routes get longer than boulder problems and the font grade of the individual moves drops but the difficulty of the route goes up eg. In Brine probably has a Font 7a+ crux, is F8a, is arguably quite short but is nails hard! This is where those mysterious route skills come into play. However, I am not interested in this kind of route for the purpose of this thread, its only the honorary boulder problems that I'm bothered about here. So, how about the following simplified list based on feedback so far (sorry if this is a little Peak biassed). I have included honorary routes that are boulder problems as well. After all, whether you have a rope and harness on when you are climbing them is pretty arbitary, the difficulty of the climbing is still the same.

Honorary Boulder Problems that are 'Routes' and Routes that are 'Boulder problems':

Font 7b/7b+ equates to F8a                eg Entree, Dangerous Brothers, Out of my Tree, Rattle and Hump
Font 7c equates to F8a+                    eg Rockatrocity/ Left Wall Traverse/ Ben's Roof/ Powerband
Font 7c+/Font 8a equates to F8b/8b+   eg Magnetic Fields/ Revelations/ Barracuda/Three Spheres/Jehovakil 
Font 8a+ equates to F8c                    eg The Bastard/ Hooligan
Font 8b equates to F8c+                    eg Hubble
Font 8b+ equates to F9a                    eg Unendliche Gesichte/ Dreamtime 
Font 8c equates to F9a+                    eg Violent New Breed

Is this about right or are there any glaring exceptions?

[Ru]

Is this about right or are there any glaring exceptions?

Pump up the power, font 7c+/8a+?

[Kingy]

Pump up the power, font 7c+/8a+?

Yes this one seems to buck the trend a little. If it is Font 7c+/8a then it should be F8b but it ain't. Is it a sandbag or is Font 7c+ really only F8a+?

[dobbin]

Pump up the power is hard for Font 7c+.

[Ru]

I also think font 7b/+ is a little harsh for Entree. I'd say 7b+/c by the time you're on the jugs.
Similarly, Out of My Tree. I don't think this is an easy 7b to the flatty, then you have the crux. Having said that I'm not sure what font grade I'd give it.
To me Magnetic Fields doesn't fit easily into this scheme as it's about 10-12 moves from the floor through the crux, with a clip in the middle.

The problem is that even a few easy but strenuous moves before a boulder section can make it harder, and similarly an easy route after a boulder start can also affect grade. I don't think you can just draw a straight comparison, unless the whole route is less than 10 moves. Take Jehovahkill, the meat of it is 7c+ ish (I think, it was a while ago now) as a boulder problem, but the redpoint crux is after this on the upper wall. I.e it's harder than font 7c+ in total.

I'm sure we've done this topic to death before. I remember Panton saying I must be shit at routes or something

[Kim]

The problem is that even a few easy but strenuous moves before a boulder section can make it harder

No no no, it makes the boulder problem easier because you're more warmed up, doesn't it Ted? 

[Jaspersharpe]

Yeah like on Bigger Splash Direct.

[dave]

maybe that explains people doing the ace pretty fast, it turns out the start moves actually make doing the joker the hard way easier.

[SteG]

I always thought font 8a = 8b french ish, or maybe 8b/+ french.

this was always my understanding too, putting it the other way around, I thought Powerband at Font 7c was roughly 8a route grade and Bens Roof at Font7c+ was roughly 8b as a route?

I was told in my early days of trying boulder-routes that Font grade+2 (half grades) was *about right-ish* and seems to work well for me when i try to compare the effort I put into a given boulder grade and a short bouldery route

[Pantontino]

I'm sure we've done this topic to death before. I remember Panton saying I must be shit at routes or something

 

Oh, and when I said F7b+ for the Barrel, I really meant Font 7b+. I suppose I could adopt the 8a.nu style 7B+, but then that would far too logical.

[dave]

i'm sure i've got a copy of high somewhere with a sharples peak limestone graded list, with powerband in at the bottom of the F8b list.

[Jaspersharpe]

Yeah Powerband used to be given 8b and Staminaband 8b+. I think 8a/+ and 8b would be more appropriate though.

[cofe]

with extended boulder problems that have dodgy landings should we be giving them a french grade followed by some kind of danger/seriousness indicator?

[Ru]

with extended boulder problems that have dodgy landings should we be giving them a french grade followed by some kind of danger/seriousness indicator?

You mean like grit routes?

[Kingy]

Easy dudes, you can certainly tell who the pure boulderers are on this forum!    That was what doing the much easier moves on the Press low right felt like for me, easier than pulling on halfway thru the sequence...anyway, I'll let that one go. Dave, since when has the start of the Ace been easy? This bouldering lark is witchcraft anyway, give me a nice 20m pumpfest any day!!

Dealing with the points raised above, 7b/7b+ is intended in the sense that it is an overall grade bracket, not that the difficulty of a route within that bracket is precisely 7b/7b+. I would give Entree 7b+, not 7b/7b+, same for Out of my Tree. Maybe Entree does sneak into the bracket above and is 7b+/7c??

I take Ru's point about this being discussed before. I thought it might be a timely disussion in view of recent debate re grit routes and the E grade debacle. I think the scheme is not a million miles out but agree that ppl have different takes on things. I think Ben's Roof is never F8b, compare it to Mecca, although it used to be given F8b+!! I reckon Ben's Roof and Powerband are both around 8a+, bit harsh giving Powerband only F8a, I believe it was originally the first F8b route!

Maybe font grade plus 2 = route grade? I am working on nearer plus 3 = route grade but maybe that's hogwash, who knows!!

[dave]

the whole route grade for boulder problems thing is daft anyway. for example the climbing on bens roof or powerband is miles harder than on caviar for example. boulder problems given a sport grade are always easier to do than actually doing a route of that grade simply because you don't have to pause to clip, and you can generally pull on and work every move. plus you don't need a belayer to try them, hence easier to try, hence greater sucess, hence very little to make them comparable. this is why most people who've done powerband won't have done F8b, and most people who've done weedkiller traverse won't have done F7c+ or whatever.  this makes comparing stuff hard too, as stuff on a rope generally always feels harder than it does on the ground, if only because its often hard to pull on, and even dogging up on a rope will tire you out (unless you're ted and this just warms you up!).

[Somebody's Fool]

I think what cofe is driving at, is that to combine a difficulty rating such as the Australian, or even UIAA, system with a letter denoting the danger, would give more information about the extended boulder problem in question.

So for example, if you rocked up at Rubicon and were eyeing up Bigger Splash Direct as your project for the afternoon, a grade of, let's say, 23 R would give a much better idea of the hazards involved in an ascent than just 7a+.

[Kim]

boulder problems given a sport grade are always easier to do than actually doing a route of that grade simply because you don't have to pause to clip, and you can generally pull on and work every move.

The climbing is miles harder but easier to do? You mean less hassle, not easier. For you Caviar must have been like a few goes compared to lots of working on Ben's for example, no? I.e. caviar was much easier (assuming those few pulls on jugs can be easily sorted!).

Think of how much you've worked powerband, I reckon you'll do route 8b before you do that  

[dave]

climbing is harder than the routes of the same nominal french grade, but easier than doing the exact same moves on a route with bolts on.

less hassle may as well mean easier, same end result!

[cofe]

I think what cofe is driving at, is that to combine a difficulty rating such as the Australian, or even UIAA, system with a letter denoting the danger, would give more information about the extended boulder problem in question.

So for example, if you rocked up at Rubicon and were eyeing up Bigger Splash Direct as your project for the afternoon, a grade of, let's say, 23 R would give a much better idea of the hazards involved in an ascent than just 7a+.

eureka!

[Kim]

I think what cofe is driving at, is that to combine a difficulty rating such as the Australian, or even UIAA, system with a letter denoting the danger, would give more information about the extended boulder problem in question.

So for example, if you rocked up at Rubicon and were eyeing up Bigger Splash Direct as your project for the afternoon, a grade of, let's say, 23 R would give a much better idea of the hazards involved in an ascent than just 7a+.

eureka!

Eureka for you maybe but, suffixes aside, downgrading a benchmark 24 in such a nonchalant fashion is the sort of thinking could precipitate a collapse of the entire British grading system. Next thing you know Gaia will be E6 and we'll be the laughing stock of the world.

[dave]

Maybe we need a 23+ for if you think its borderline.

[Kingy]

Coming back to the point of the thread, if the Groove really is Font 7c+ as reported by Kevin, according to the scheme above, this would equate to around F8b (Pump up the Power excepted). (Obviously if it turns out to be Font 8a then F8b+ or even F8c may be merited). F8b equates to well protected E8. Should the first part of the Groove be graded E8 finishing up the much much easier Fern Hill finish? I don't know as I ain't climbed it. However, applying my powers of reasoning and going on Kevin's reports on the danger involved, I might perhaps add an E point due to the dodgy fall involved and to acknowledge that leading the route may well be 'serious' due to the fact that your belayer might have to run backwards a bit if you came off the crux. Would E9 be unreasonable as a wild stab in the dark?

[Dr T]

been looking through the portland guide and here's a couple to ponder about-

sub youth - route - 7b+
     boulder start - V7 (so 7a+)

Stompin' with bez -route - 7b+
                boulder start - V8 (so 7b)

Lat's bolts and Babes - route - 7b+
                      boulder start - V8 (7b/+ - can't do this one so can't comment)

the top parts of the later two are about 6c standard so significantly easy but still seems close - some might say the boulder problems are over graded but I wouldn't say so

I guess not many of you lots have climbed these but thought I'd throw it in the mix....

[abarro81]

This bouldering lark is witchcraft anyway, give me a nice 20m pumpfest any day!!

Double it and we're talking...

[Kim]

Coming back to the point of the thread,

Ahem, sorry 

if the Groove really is Font 7c+ as reported by Kevin, according to the scheme above, this would equate to around F8b (Pump up the Power excepted). (Obviously if it turns out to be Font 8a then F8b+ or even F8c may be merited). F8b equates to well protected E8. Should the first part of the Groove be graded E8 finishing up the much much easier Fern Hill finish? I don't know as I ain't climbed it. However, applying my powers of reasoning and going on Kevin's reports on the danger involved, I might perhaps add an E point due to the dodgy fall involved and to acknowledge that leading the route may well be 'serious' due to the fact that your belayer might have to run backwards a bit if you came off the crux. Would E9 be unreasonable as a wild stab in the dark?

Though now you seem to have deviated somewhat yourself, but i'll join in....since when did ground-sweeping falls become classified as safe?! Gaia E8 (bold F7b+ according to the gritlist, waited umpteen years for an onsight, near/ground fall if you fluff it) and now we're talking about a near/ground fall off a F8b (by your calcs, or Font 7c+ at least), that's also got a completely unobvious sequence (i.e. desperate to onsight notwithstanding french grade), and an unrepeated top section... And we might (from our collective armchairs  ) be prepared to nudge the grade up to E9?  I don't see why E grades can't come off the french+danger scale, there's way more involved in onsighting trad than that.

[Ru]

Though now you seem to have deviated somewhat yourself, but i'll join in....since when did ground-sweeping falls become classified as safe?!

I thought Kevin said he stopped 5 ft off the deck or something? Anyway, I've decked off a few sport routes before now on rope stretch (albeit from not massively high up, I'm not talking Gaia esque floor sweepers here) and they're considered safe. There's a lot of "safe" stuff you'd have to reconsider if safe has to mean a completely clear fall out zone onto bomber gear. Having said that there's probably a lot of recently declared "safe" stuff that would give me the willies. I wouldn't like to fall onto that slider on the Promise for instance unless I was damn sure it was staying put.

[Kingy]

No worries Kim its a free country, we can talk about what we like!

I haven't said anything so far about the Groove and those are my thoughts on it to go with dozens of others on the other thread. I think that is all I will say now, you're right the armchair thing can be taken too far. I think it would be a shame if we weren't allowed to express our opinions. I see your point about Gaia and its horrible fall and the fall off the Groove, which I personally have not even seen myself, I was only going off Kevin's blog. I too would rather be out climbing but unfortunately i seem to have contracted some kind of weird man flu today so have had to skip training  . Oh well, always tomorrow! Take it easy, and don't go warming up on any V11's! 

[Paz]

miles harder than on caviar for example.

Nice one, I take it you managed to clip the lower off this time ;-).