[dave]

climbing is harder than the routes of the same nominal french grade, but easier than doing the exact same moves on a route with bolts on.

less hassle may as well mean easier, same end result!

[cofe]

I think what cofe is driving at, is that to combine a difficulty rating such as the Australian, or even UIAA, system with a letter denoting the danger, would give more information about the extended boulder problem in question.

So for example, if you rocked up at Rubicon and were eyeing up Bigger Splash Direct as your project for the afternoon, a grade of, let's say, 23 R would give a much better idea of the hazards involved in an ascent than just 7a+.

eureka!

[Kim]

I think what cofe is driving at, is that to combine a difficulty rating such as the Australian, or even UIAA, system with a letter denoting the danger, would give more information about the extended boulder problem in question.

So for example, if you rocked up at Rubicon and were eyeing up Bigger Splash Direct as your project for the afternoon, a grade of, let's say, 23 R would give a much better idea of the hazards involved in an ascent than just 7a+.

eureka!

Eureka for you maybe but, suffixes aside, downgrading a benchmark 24 in such a nonchalant fashion is the sort of thinking could precipitate a collapse of the entire British grading system. Next thing you know Gaia will be E6 and we'll be the laughing stock of the world.

[dave]

Maybe we need a 23+ for if you think its borderline.

[Kingy]

Coming back to the point of the thread, if the Groove really is Font 7c+ as reported by Kevin, according to the scheme above, this would equate to around F8b (Pump up the Power excepted). (Obviously if it turns out to be Font 8a then F8b+ or even F8c may be merited). F8b equates to well protected E8. Should the first part of the Groove be graded E8 finishing up the much much easier Fern Hill finish? I don't know as I ain't climbed it. However, applying my powers of reasoning and going on Kevin's reports on the danger involved, I might perhaps add an E point due to the dodgy fall involved and to acknowledge that leading the route may well be 'serious' due to the fact that your belayer might have to run backwards a bit if you came off the crux. Would E9 be unreasonable as a wild stab in the dark?

[Dr T]

been looking through the portland guide and here's a couple to ponder about-

sub youth - route - 7b+
     boulder start - V7 (so 7a+)

Stompin' with bez -route - 7b+
                boulder start - V8 (so 7b)

Lat's bolts and Babes - route - 7b+
                      boulder start - V8 (7b/+ - can't do this one so can't comment)

the top parts of the later two are about 6c standard so significantly easy but still seems close - some might say the boulder problems are over graded but I wouldn't say so

I guess not many of you lots have climbed these but thought I'd throw it in the mix....

[abarro81]

This bouldering lark is witchcraft anyway, give me a nice 20m pumpfest any day!!

Double it and we're talking...

[Kim]

Coming back to the point of the thread,

Ahem, sorry 

if the Groove really is Font 7c+ as reported by Kevin, according to the scheme above, this would equate to around F8b (Pump up the Power excepted). (Obviously if it turns out to be Font 8a then F8b+ or even F8c may be merited). F8b equates to well protected E8. Should the first part of the Groove be graded E8 finishing up the much much easier Fern Hill finish? I don't know as I ain't climbed it. However, applying my powers of reasoning and going on Kevin's reports on the danger involved, I might perhaps add an E point due to the dodgy fall involved and to acknowledge that leading the route may well be 'serious' due to the fact that your belayer might have to run backwards a bit if you came off the crux. Would E9 be unreasonable as a wild stab in the dark?

Though now you seem to have deviated somewhat yourself, but i'll join in....since when did ground-sweeping falls become classified as safe?! Gaia E8 (bold F7b+ according to the gritlist, waited umpteen years for an onsight, near/ground fall if you fluff it) and now we're talking about a near/ground fall off a F8b (by your calcs, or Font 7c+ at least), that's also got a completely unobvious sequence (i.e. desperate to onsight notwithstanding french grade), and an unrepeated top section... And we might (from our collective armchairs  ) be prepared to nudge the grade up to E9?  I don't see why E grades can't come off the french+danger scale, there's way more involved in onsighting trad than that.

[Ru]

Though now you seem to have deviated somewhat yourself, but i'll join in....since when did ground-sweeping falls become classified as safe?!

I thought Kevin said he stopped 5 ft off the deck or something? Anyway, I've decked off a few sport routes before now on rope stretch (albeit from not massively high up, I'm not talking Gaia esque floor sweepers here) and they're considered safe. There's a lot of "safe" stuff you'd have to reconsider if safe has to mean a completely clear fall out zone onto bomber gear. Having said that there's probably a lot of recently declared "safe" stuff that would give me the willies. I wouldn't like to fall onto that slider on the Promise for instance unless I was damn sure it was staying put.

[Kingy]

No worries Kim its a free country, we can talk about what we like!

I haven't said anything so far about the Groove and those are my thoughts on it to go with dozens of others on the other thread. I think that is all I will say now, you're right the armchair thing can be taken too far. I think it would be a shame if we weren't allowed to express our opinions. I see your point about Gaia and its horrible fall and the fall off the Groove, which I personally have not even seen myself, I was only going off Kevin's blog. I too would rather be out climbing but unfortunately i seem to have contracted some kind of weird man flu today so have had to skip training  . Oh well, always tomorrow! Take it easy, and don't go warming up on any V11's! 

[Paz]

miles harder than on caviar for example.

Nice one, I take it you managed to clip the lower off this time ;-).