[Paul B]

Feel free to tarnish me with that brush if you will (although  I think it would be unjust) however the other people commenting on this thread are far from elitist. If people didn't make their opinions known then how would people know about areas where improvement is possible? The works is a great commercial success there is no denying that, its also great for the mid easy to tricky grade bands, that's why I suggested my other half take out a membership there and not at the foundry or edge.

[Percy B]

2) Because it wouldn't be as popular as the mantling corner, Volume humping area, or the big orange ball dynoing areas!

Percy, are you completely sure about this?

Yes, as sure as I can be.

Paul - the board is work in progress. We've not finished yet, but seeing as how me and Sam are currently not climbing (Sam has codfinger, and I've not had time due to family comitments) we're doing a bit, getting feedback, and then tweaking until the job is good. We'll have another 'do' tomorrow.

Circuits and hard problems will currently have to co-exist harmoniously and without bitching on this board - it's possible but you will have to exercise a little tolerance and understanding for those seeking a burning pump. We all have our problems....

Poor Grumpy seems to have gotten short shrift from you bullies......however, nobody needs to shut the fuck up, as long as it keeps the Works thread on top of the list of topics!

 

[grumpycrumpy]

So it works then , it's a great place .... But like anywhere open to everyone  it  can't possibly fulfill everybody's requirements ..... We each want something different from a place , I go to certain pubs just because they sell Moonshine but I don't hassle a landlord that doesn't .... I agree that there should be somewhere for those that climb hard and want to climb harder , but essentially haranguing the owners of a business is not good ..... And I've just read back through this thread and only one person said please ( well done Jasper ) ......  

[grumpycrumpy]

Apologies Percy , I was probably speaking out of turn .... But when grumpy's major and minor start shouting 'I want , I want , I want , I tend to have the same reaction ie You can't have it all  .....

[Paul B]

Paul - the board is work in progress. We've not finished yet, but seeing as how me and Sam are currently not climbing (Sam has codfinger, and I've not had time due to family comitments) we're doing a bit, getting feedback, and then tweaking until the job is good. We'll have another 'do' tomorrow.

Cool (well not the injury and the lack of time) Some more specific (one-sided) feedback, of course its just from my silly little head and you know where that gets me.

The black problem at the LHS:
Did you mean for it to have an Egyptian to make the move into the undercut easy?
what's the cowpat for your LH for its easy enough to reach straight through?
When you hit the next LH hold its big enough to easily yard to the top, does it need the RH end crimp?

The orange problem next right is nice, but not very consistent, tricky start followed by a trivial finish.

The orange problem next right, does it really need the intermediate? it ruins what could be a big lock. The starting hold also gets used as a footer which makes the move less tricky again.

Pocket problem on the RHS - great

Currently I don't think any of the problems except maybe the furthest orange on the RHS is any harder than anything on your font style circuits but again this is probably because its still a W.I.P.
I'll be interested to see how the harder problems pan out, as I think there is a fine line between hard and impossibly hard especially at such a shallow angle.

I appreciate all of the takes time changes like this take so good on you.

Circuits and hard problems will currently have to co-exist harmoniously and without bitching on this board - it's possible but you will have to exercise a little tolerance and understanding for those seeking a burning pump. We all have our problems....

Hence the brackets, it's not ideal but more than bearable.

oh grumpy...Sorry, Thanks, Please 

[Kim]

From a purely commercial point of view, I'd guess reducing the area for circuit problems by three or four panels would lose precisely zero business (nobody's going to stop coming because the circuits only have 37 problems rather than 40), while doubling the area of the training wall could generate extra business from the strong-but-want-to-be stronger crew.

I enjoyed the new training board setup tonight (mainly because, unlike Paul, up to 7c keeps me plenty busy  ) And, as they kindly pointed out, the stamina monkeys did force me to rest properly between goes!  

[r-man]

And I've just read back through this thread and only one person said please ( well done Jasper )

You aren't reading properly. Or counting properly.

[grumpycrumpy]

I'm hanging my head in shame , there's four ( up to Paul b's just above which I'm not going to count as I detect a slight hint of sarcasm in his  )yourself included I notice ...... Again this may be wrong as my eyes can no longer focus properly , six minutes sleep in eleven days tends to do that ..... The other thing I noticed was there some others voicing similar thoughts to my own , ok they weren't put quite as bluntly , but still they were in the same vein   ......

[Sloper]

I'm with Grumpy in terms of the thrust of the argument; on a commercial basis you need to consider the user numbers that can use an area of the wall at any one time, the numbers of users that will use an area of wall and the frequency that the users will use the wall.

I would bet that the number of regular users of the training board is substantially fewer than 100 (10 at a time would be a high average), as such any erosion of capacity for the situation where one regulary finds >100 people on the circuits and >20 on the comp wall would be a very poor business decision.

I think all the strong boys and girls opinion about the grades people climb are distorted by the pure energy radiating from their ripepd bodies; I think that even at the works the average grade climbed is below Font 5 and the % climbing >Font 7 is at the right hand end of the bell curve.

To be blunt, if you can't afford to build your own facility why do you think that Sam, Percy and Graeme should subsidise you?  This is nothing personal, just the way business is.

[grumpycrumpy]

As a sign of penance I will even help you build such a facility .....

[Jaspersharpe]

To be blunt, if you can't afford to build your own facility why do you think that Sam, Percy and Graeme should subsidise you?  This is nothing personal, just the way business is.

Yeah you're right Sloper, why bother having a training board at all? Just cover the thing in circuits of jugs and leave it at that. Everyone climbing harder than 6C can fuck off to The Foundry, they're in the minority so their views don't matter. As dave said it's a good job the owners of the place don't have such a blinkered attitude. Everyone knows that The Works is a commercial venture and that it is a very successful one as it is. It has been from day one and from day one it had a training board.

Someone mentioned earlier that the reason circuits have taken over the board in recent months is that Sam has seen who has been using it for what and changed it to suit. This is a fair point but I would say there's a good reason for that. Some people climb outdoors.

Until the clocks changed I'd only been to any climbing wall three or four times over the previous five months as I'd been climbing OUTSIDE. It is mainly over the winter that I need decent hardish problems to train on and I would have thought that that's the case for most people who climb at my (mid grade) level and a little harder. And R-man is right, there are plenty of us! It's completely understandable (in fact it's a no brainer) that over the summer/autumn fewer stronger climbers will have been frequenting The Works, especially (and here's the point) fewer stronger climbers who would want to train for climbing outside which is what the board (used to and maybe now again) offers - because they were OUTSIDE. This has been especially true this summer with the weather being generally shit so while most punters had nowhere dry to climb (and so went to The Works), I was at Rubicon or Crag X dodging the mud.

I've never suggested ripping out bits of the wall or anything. The place makes money and if it aint broke etc. Percy has said that he has plans for a better board in the future, fair enough. The point I've tried to make time and again is that the training board used to work fine (for what it is) then it got ruined. It seems that despite the idiotic protestations of a few the management are doing something to return it to it's previous working state. I'll get to find out for myself at the weekend anyway.

grumpy - you should really read the thread before jumping in with both feet! Percy asked for constructive criticism and that is what he has been getting.

[grumpycrumpy]

Jasper , I did read the thread before jumping in with both feet , and I'll admit that a lot of what was written was constructive criticism , which Percy duly took on board ..... I also feel that a line was then crossed and it became more of a this is what you should do wishlist kind of thing  .....Hence my posts ....

[LucyB]

Here's my 1p worth - proper training is good fun, and I am slowly getting strong enough to get back on some steep, minging crimps. Hooray!

Back in the days of the edge woodie, despite all its limitations (bit too short in places), it was always a good laugh and there seemed to be enough scope for people to get what they wanted from it. Obviously, people still bitched about this, that and the other...

Anyone else remember that it had to close to make way for the cafe because it simply wasn't commercially viable? It is still something of a niche market; I think that if you want a specific training facility that will meet the very specific needs of the really dedicated and strong crowd, you will probably have to sort yourselves out and set up something yourself, as the school was set up back in the day by people who were psyched and got off their arses to provide exactly what they wanted for themselves.

_{I was never invited to join the school...}

[Paul B]

Back in the days of the edge woodie, despite all its limitations (bit too short in places), it was always a good laugh and there seemed to be enough scope for people to get what they wanted from it. Obviously, people still bitched about this, that and the other...

It did have its limitations however the edge woodie was great. But if you look at it closer it only needed to be as big as from the door to the end of the 45 as nobody really used the rest of it apart from Ste Mc who went round and round and round and round.
Nobody is suggesting the works open a dedicated training venue.

as the school was set up back in the day by people who were psyched and got off their arses to provide exactly what they wanted for themselves.

People keep banging this drum, its currently not possible. If it were the boards wouldn't effectively be in storage, you've got a lot of motivated individuals who've invested a lot of time and effort into trying to keep the place open looking for opportunities to relocate and as yet nothing has worked out.

_{I was never invited to join the school...}

Was anyone? I certainly never was I just pestered Nic to be put on the waiting list and then *BANG* 3 and a half years later I had an email saying there was a space. Nobody leaves so turnover of members is extremely slow and the list just keeps getting bigger.

[Fiend]

From a purely commercial point of view, I'd guess reducing the area for circuit problems by three or four panels would lose precisely zero business (nobody's going to stop coming because the circuits only have 37 problems rather than 40), while doubling the area of the training wall could generate extra business from the strong-but-want-to-be stronger crew.

This seems like a good point. I've never been on a circuit and thought "Man I am so glad I've got to do 40 problems instead of 35 and that I've managed to cover 30,000 square metres of climbing instead of 28,000". I doubt most people haven't either and I doubt that it would make any difference to numbers.

(I have on the other hand thought why on earth am I climbing on two skip roofs when there's already a large block roof and a series of arches to hang upside down on....oh and the uber-steep comp wall too)

My perspective: I am a punter (fat, weak, AND injured) and will never go near the training board. Any expansion to the training board will diminish the amount of climbing available to me without any benefit to myself. BUT I entirely agree with the people asking for it to be extended/improved - because I think they are right. They are customers too and could potentially be more customers, and I believe with some tweaking The Works has the space (and the inclination - shown by the various improvements so far) to be all things to all people.

0:02

[Sloper]

To be blunt, if you can't afford to build your own facility why do you think that Sam, Percy and Graeme should subsidise you?  This is nothing personal, just the way business is.

Yeah you're right Sloper, why bother having a training board at all? Just cover the thing in circuits of jugs and leave it at that. Everyone climbing harder than 6C can fuck off to The Foundry, they're in the minority so their views don't matter. As dave said it's a good job the owners of the place don't have such a blinkered attitude. Everyone knows that The Works is a commercial venture and that it is a very successful one as it is. It has been from day one and from day one it had a training board.

Jasper, did you have a rough night or are youjust in a bad mood?

My point is that the training board in financial terms is probably the least economically viable part of the wall (other than the campus board) and that's it.  I'm not suggesting that the board shouldn't be there but as with anything else commercial it has to appeal to the majority of potential users of that part of the facility and that will still be people climbing at less than stratospheric levels.

I have no brief for the climbing works etc merely expressing the view that I would doubt that a more dedicated training facility (i.e. doing something other than re-setting to cater for the more popularist training tastes) is economically viable.

You're an accountant right, surely this should be blindingly obvious?

[Jaspersharpe]

Jasper, did you have a rough night or are youjust in a bad mood?

Neither. I am having a bad day but wasn't when I posted earlier! 

You keep mentioning stuff being economically viable. I see a thriving business. Unless The Works is having to turn people away because the training board is taking up valuable punter space then it aint damaging their profits. Come to think of it, even if that was the case then they'd be making so much money that it wouldn't matter! The board didn't used to have easy circuits on it and because of that didn't get as much traffic. The Works still made money. By saying that the board "has to appeal to the majority of potential users" you are backing up the argument that, by definition, it should be covered in easy circuits. As I said, fortunately the owners don't agree.

You're an accountant right, surely this should be blindingly obvious?

I do actually care about this a lot but I'm not stupid enough to be blinkered to the financial implications. I just don't think this is 100% about money either (again, fortunately).

[Paul B]

I was down tonight but not climbing and noticed a few of the problems had been tweaked here and there with one new problem on the right hand end which (i'm just guessing), is going to have a really really hard last move. I'm assuming the comp wall will now be the priority with the comp on friday.

[Jaspersharpe]

Went yesterday. The new problems seem mainly excellent. Sam was busy with comp setting but i had a brief chat and he said it was still a work in progress. More problems will go up and the new ones tweaked if necessary (input welcome as ever). Didn't try everything but the central red problem is particularly good and will be even better with a hold taken off (the LH of the two that are next to each other is redundant) and the top hold changed for a worse one.

Nice one lads. 

[Paul B]

Do you have a lanky mans sequence there then? as for me its currently sit start (on redundant leg to be able to reach!), left hand pinching block RH on poor sidepull, rockover to RH crimp, flick LH to u/cut. RH up for next hold, high foot and flag, get LH on hold right next to it. RH pinch LH top.

I had another session on the board thurs ish and the tweaks had made some of the problems harder and some more consistent. I wasn't feeling as strong as tues and things were feeling tough  .

I'm not sure the undercutting blue glass problem will catch on...

The new comp wall problems seem like a strange bunch. Most of the holds are massive except for the one green problem.

[Percy B]

The new comp wall problems seem like a strange bunch. Most of the holds are massive except for the one green problem.

So you'll have flashed them all then, Paul? All those big holds - I bet they were all easy, eh? 
The comp was for all abilities - from beginner to the be(a)st. The best were shut down by several problems, so big holds or not, I think the difficulty was just right. More problems are to be added on Monday to fill any gaps. You're obsession with only pulling on small holds is a little specific - it's possible to have difficult problems that use big holds too, you know....

[Drew]

The new comp wall problems seem like a strange bunch. Most of the holds are massive except for the one green problem.

Shirley that's a good thing? So many walls just make problems harder by making the holds smaller, and further apart. The Works is one of the few places which make problems harder, by actually demanding more from the participant.

[Paul B]

The new comp wall problems seem like a strange bunch. Most of the holds are massive except for the one green problem.

So you'll have flashed them all then, Paul? All those big holds - I bet they were all easy, eh? 
The comp was for all abilities - from beginner to the be(a)st. The best were shut down by several problems, so big holds or not, I think the difficulty was just right. More problems are to be added on Monday to fill any gaps. You're obsession with only pulling on small holds is a little specific - it's possible to have difficult problems that use big holds too, you know....

As you well know (or could at least guess) the volume centric problems shot me down in flames. The green is the hardest on there (ignoring your special) and I couldn't do it from a sitter as I was finding it tricky to move my heel at the start, technical qualities shining through once again.
For what its worth, I enjoyed the problems that I did./tried There was no criticism in my statement just an observation, the holds are all either BIG BIG or LITTLE LITTLE.
p.s. I'm not the only one to have noticed this.

Shirley that's a good thing? So many walls just make problems harder by making the holds smaller, and further apart. The Works is one of the few places which make problems harder, by actually demanding more from the participant.

WTF? yes its great to be technically challenged but bigger moves and smaller holds DO demand more from the participant. The difference being if you don't have it you can't get round it.

[nik at work]

Maybe I'm misunderstanding you Paul but surely your (self-confessed) poor showing on these "big hold" problems suggests that strength isn't your weakness, but techniques is, and maybe you would be well served by working your technique on these types of problems?
Of course there is a seperate debate about indoor technique translating to outdoors or not, personally I think there is transfer as after all climbing is just moving between a series of points whether you are inside or out. However that discussion is a long one which I lack the inclination for entering into.

[Houdini]

Nik's saying you're shit, Paul_. 

Maybe you should discuss this at dawn, like gentlemen?