[Kingy]

Johnny Dawes thought it would be E9 7a for him when he tried top roping New Statesman ages ago I remember.

[Jim]

• New Statesman, E9 5.13c/d R
• The Promise, E8 5.13c/d R

Feel free to shoot me down here as I know nothing about american grades or route grades in general but I am fairly sure there is quite a big difference between e8 and e9, how can they both be the same american grade yet be different e grades. Is it because the american grade is only for difficulty and the e grade takes into account the extra danger factor? Does this mean the promise is safer than statesman?

[shark]

Yes and yes.

[Fiend]

I suspect "R" covers a wide range of sins.

In fact, in the UK, for a given high end climbing difficulty grade, we usually have about 5 levels of describing the danger aspect e.g. E5 6c E6 6c E7 6c E8 6c E9 6c. Using the US system we'd have 3 levels, 5.13d 5.13d R 5.13d X, hmmm.

[T_B]

I suspect "R" covers a wide range of sins.

It does. I've done a few 'X' and 'R' rated routes in the US. Some of the 'R' rated routes were merely not bomber gear and no big deal really. Most trad in the US is basically really well protected (i.e. cracks). If it isn't they tend to stick a bolt (or lots of bolts in).

It would be interesting to see how these bold US climbers would get on in the Czech. Now that is the land of the 'R'!

[dom]

It would be interesting to see how these bold US climbers would get on in the Czech. Now that is the land of the 'R'!

pretty well actually.  -see the sharp end dvd

[stevie haston]

Hello, and yes the brits should hide their heads in Shame. We have been fucked, proper fucked and we have been begging for it for years, I am totally embarrassed, if we hadnt made such a big deal about how unique and wonderfully dashing our climbing was it wouldnt be so bad.  Climbing is a comp, get real, stop being ill. You can say climbing is about enjoying your self all you like, but when you throw the gauntlet down dont expect no one to pick it up and have a go. Pearsons , McLeod are very good climbers , but on a world scale where are they? The answer is they are very good but not the best. Jaspers remarks are true, different sequence makes for a different grade, but come on first Rhapsody, then Parthian, now the Promise. Oh and by the way why hasnt Parthian being ground up by a brit, shit its in Britain, isnt it, its 10 mins from the School isnt it, the holy place that has prodiced 'all of Britains top climbers' . If I sound harsh please believe me when I say Iam not, I am deeply ashamed. Every time I come back to Britain its the same, lots of overly strong lads messing around on sitdown starts, what about Jumbo love , what about the world cup, oh sorry I forgot yes we have gritstone, therefore we are the best.  Time to start a new  Brit fashion wearing Hoodies the wrong way round. Stevie.

[Fiend]

ROFL, good rant, but I don't think it's all right.

So one of the world's very best trad climbers comes over and it takes him a hell of a lot of effort to repeat Rhapsody which is only 3rd place in British difficulty stakes.

So one of America's top highballers comes over in the best bloody grit conditions October has ever seen and does some of the highball gritstone routes and tinkers with the grade by one degree or two.

I still think our trad, and top trad climbers, stand tall.

And no-one's making any big comparisons with our sport climbing to Jumbo Love etc etc...but...

One of the world's very best sport climbers comes over and in his own words is totally syked for Steve Mac's routes.

Don't forget it pisses down a lot in this country too...

[Paul B]

Hello, and yes the brits should hide their heads in Shame. We have been fucked, proper fucked and we have been begging for it for years, I am totally embarrassed, if we hadnt made such a big deal about how unique and wonderfully dashing our climbing was it wouldnt be so bad.  Climbing is a comp, get real, stop being ill. You can say climbing is about enjoying your self all you like, but when you throw the gauntlet down dont expect no one to pick it up and have a go. Pearsons , McLeod are very good climbers , but on a world scale where are they?

Missed Mclure here, and I'd say he's pretty fucking world class. Oh and simpson, and pearson wasn't exactly doing badly with his bouldering now was he?

The answer is they are very good but not the best. Jaspers remarks are true, different sequence makes for a different grade, but come on first Rhapsody, then Parthian, now the Promise. Oh and by the way why hasnt Parthian being ground up by a brit, shit its in Britain, isnt it, its 10 mins from the School isnt it, the holy place that has prodiced 'all of Britains top climbers' .

Jump on that band wagon, why does it offend you so much that some people choose to boulder? And no it isn't, the school is in storage and hasn't been climbable for over a year now.

If I sound harsh please believe me when I say Iam not, I am deeply ashamed. Every time I come back to Britain its the same, lots of overly strong lads messing around on sitdown starts, what about Jumbo love , what about the world cup, oh sorry I forgot yes we have gritstone, therefore we are the best.  Time to start a new  Brit fashion wearing Hoodies the wrong way round. Stevie.

Again thats simply not true, go and watch onsight if your opinion differs. Ok so an American beat us to it on a ground up of an E9. Wowza.

[nik at work]

I don't get why we should be ashamed?
Some guys have come along and repeated some of the UKs hard routes in a variety of styles and along the way have broadly agreed with the grades and seemingly enjoyed themselves. The one anomaly seems to be the Promise where it sounds like a new sequence has been found which unsurprisingly changes the grade, Brad Pit anyone? Ashamed, I don't think so, just pleased that people think it's worth traveling halfway round the world to climb some routes.

Good on them for coming here to do these routes and good on us for seemingly providing good hospitality.

Now when are they going to Rivelin Quarries?

[Jaspersharpe]

A nation of weaklings. We should be ashamed.

[jamie]

Didn't Chris Sharma say he thought the Mandala V16 or something when he first did it.

Now its thought to be about V12 (?), since DG found a new sequence and Lamiche (a French man?) flashed it.

Chris Sharma's reputation seems to be ok though, and the Americans aren't embarressed.

[Jaspersharpe]

Well said.

It's hardly something new. Maginot Line went from 8c to 8b+ when someone less basic than Ben found the foot trickery and only Ben (AFAIK) did Hubble with the ridiculous "both feet on" beta for the crux (I see a pattern!) which probably made it more like 9a. Even the great Fred cocked up on Danse Des Balrogs meaning that the worlds first 8B can now be done by an easier method at 8A+. Action Direct - Wolfie crushes it with basic mono campus awesomeness, easier sequence found. It happens to the very best. Oh and as people are speaking of Dunney, The Maximum anyone?

[Danny]

A nation of weaklings. We should be ashamed.

Ashamed isn't the right word, it's more amusing.

It's good to see the wind taken out of the HMS E-grade's sails IMO

Regardless of what anyone else thinks, that's exactly how it looks to me.

[Jaspersharpe]

I'm assuming you didn't actually click on the link which you're quoting.

[jamie]

"It happens to the very best"

Mr G and that traverse off of stick it. Easier with a new sequence.

Maybe the problem is the top Brits are too strong, so they just use rubbish beta.

[Jaspersharpe]

More sense from KJ here.......

http://www.kevinjorgeson.com/Travels.pdf

.....wise words.

[SA Chris]

This whole "oh this is so embarrassing" sounds so terribly "british" that it in itself actually embarrassing.

[Jaspersharpe]

Exactly. If some visiting climbers had crushed our projects and thereby raised the standard of the most popular form of climbing in the country by a grade then that might be more embarrassing. A bit like oh, say Moony did in France with the first 8cs? But A: Nothing like that's even happened and B: It IS only the british who could see it as embarrassing. The French climbing media (justifiably!) kicked up a fuss about the provocative route names but Jibe, Didier, Marc etc just got better and crushed. This is a pissy storm in a stupid teacup. Well done to JP and KJ for keeping it sensible.

[Paul B]

"It happens to the very best"

Mr G and that traverse off of stick it. Easier with a new sequence.

Maybe the problem is the top Brits are too strong, so they just use rubbish beta.

thats a slightly different case IMO Jamie.

[cowboyhat]

Exactly. If some visiting climbers had crushed our projects and thereby raised the standard of the most popular form of climbing in the country by a grade then that might be more embarrassing. A bit like oh, say Moony did in France with the first 8cs? But A: Nothing like that's even happened and B: It IS only the british who could see it as embarrassing. The French climbing media (justifiably!) kicked up a fuss about the provocative route names but Jibe, Didier, Marc etc just got better and crushed. This is a pissy storm in a stupid teacup. Well done to JP, KJ and JS for keeping it sensible.

[Bubba]

This is a pissy storm in a stupid teacup. Well done to JP and KJ for keeping it sensible.

[stevie haston]

Hello, you can be ashamed or not, its up to you. I am not only ashamed I am fooking mortified. I loved it when Jerry went to France and Spanked them, I cheered when Ben did the so aptly named Maginot Line, I dont like it when Brits come 33rd in Comps, I would prefer Onda to be an eastern bloc worker seeking employment in Sheffield  marrying a local girl and passing on some of the right stuff. You can feel that your not limited by being weak like some, you can pretend to be Mr Nice and not care that apart from Mclure we have no decent climbers but thats not me and thats not the feeling I got talking to lots of climbers in Wales. Ok its alot to do with people trying to sell stuff but the E grades are not based on what people can do onsight and yes we are very strong two inches above a mat.  There are beasts in Britain just like in most places, but why(Paul B) cant we have beasts who can boulder, do multi pitch, and do the occaisional run out route. I am sorry but if I could boulder as hard as some of you lot, I would have been straight on Rhapsody laughing my head off and willingly taking falls. I am amazed at the increadibly high leval of bouldering in Britain, but a bit shocked at how little is done with it. I am very aware of all the good or lets say potentialy great  climbers in Britain, but lets face it apart from Mclure and Ty(isnt he really a yank?) whats happening, the route in devon  and the one on the Ben may well prove to be very hard but at a lower leval visiters are doing very well. When Antoine LeMenestral soloed Revelations it was a very black day, and there havent been many sunny ones since, thats just my opinion, I am not jumping on a band wagon, I would be very happy for things to change. Tie onto that rope Ty. Stevie 

[account_inactive]

 

Maybe the focus of the nation is not on killing ourselves anymore.

Good effort to the yanks for coming over here and climbing these routes.  It's about time they get the REAL reputation for their quality climbing.  When we start to have them putting up hard routes that our best can't match then maybe you have a point about national pride.

[Paul B]

There are beasts in Britain just like in most places, but why(Paul B) cant we have beasts who can boulder, do multi pitch, and do the occaisional run out route.

Simply because some people don't WANT to do all of these things.

Personally:
http://i72.photobucket.com/albums/i165/bennp2000/DSCF0113.jpg
has a fair deal with me not wanting to risk anything un necessarily dangerous. I'm sure other people have their own reasons and there's nothing wrong with that.
Take a glance welsh-ward (wad?) to get instances of people crushing ground up and in good style. Absolutely fuck all to be embarrassed about from that direction.