[ghisino]

i'm in the process of organizing my training thoughts for a possible yosemite trip next spring, or autumn, or who knows.

the greatest grey zone to me is that i'd like to have the best multi-day fitness of my life, but i have no experience of how to obtain it without sacrificing performance at the move, problem, pitch level. (it is trivial that if you choose easy enough climbs, you can handle huge volumes of it without any special training... )

the problem is that while i need that quality for what i'd like to climb, "big days" always seemed to spank me particularly hard : one big day is fine, i can handle it, but the next day i seem more sore and drained than most.
To make things worse, instead of fighting this weakness over the years, i've developed my climbing strategies accordingly...

at the end of the day, even if i might have a couple of basic ideas of how to improve this quality, i have no direct experience of how they might work out, and i'm totally lost about the timings (ie when to aim for the max charge, how long should an optimal "taper" be, etc).

any thoughts and experiences coming from any background? (even loosely related, ie ultramarathons or cycling)

[Stubbs]

Some thoughts from Tommy Caldwell in this vid who I guess knows a thing or two about climbing in Yosemite!

[Fultonius]

I used to have pretty poor multi-day stamina. If I did a "big" winter day in Scotland (e.g. 2-3 hr approach, 6-8 hours climbing, 2 hr descent) there's no way I'd be up for anything the next day.

These days I can usually get out and get stuff done second or third day on. I think I've gained this ability through doing typical UK Climbers holidays (i.e. a week or two somewhere abroad (or in the UK...) where we just want to get loads done but not by dropping the difficulty. It used to be hard, but now it's less so.

You have much more knowledge of training theory than me, but I think that maybe you should train at the difficulty that you aim to climb at in Yosemite, but as your training schedule progresses just reduce the rest period between sessions, and increase the volume per session. I'm assuming you're not far off your short-performance level already...

What kind of stuff are you aiming for in Yosemite? Multi-day routes? Free or Aid? We found the big free routes wrecked us but the aid wasn't so bad.

[SA Chris]

I used to have pretty poor multi-day stamina. If I did a "big" winter day in Scotland (e.g. 2-3 hr approach, 6-8 hours climbing, 2 hr descent) there's no way I'd be up for anything the next day.

And sometimes asleep before you got home!

[Sasquatch]

Myabe not quite what you're looking for, but don't underestimate fueling and hydration, which is REALLY easy to do.  Not from Climbing, but a few years back I trained for and did an ironman, so I was doing weekends of 6-9 hours steady cardio on Saturday and 3-5 hours on Sunday.  If I slacked at all on Hydration or Fuel on Saturday, my Sunday was crap, and it's really easy to misjudge how much you need. 

Once again not climbing, but compare as you will. On Saturday, I would eat a full breakfast heavy on the complex carbs (generally about 600-800 cal), then go workout. Workout would take in 150ish Cal/hr, plus a post workout meal(within 30 min) of 150/per hour worked), then lunch about 1.5hrs later and even though I wasn't really hungry, I had to make myself eat about a 500-700Cal meal.  Then a nap, then up and about for a bit, then dinner which I would aim for about 1200 Cal.  It's ridiculous how much Fuel you need for big hard days, I was easily taking in 5-6K Cal and it wasn't enough.  At least if you want to be able to go again the next day.  All of the during workout stuff should be simple fast carbs with the main goal of hitting the bloodstream fast to replenish the glucose being burned.  Post workout, a mix of simple carbs and a little protein.  Later meals, higher fat is OK.  I avoided the fat during and immediately after is Fat tends to satiate me longer and takes longer for the body to process, so you are less hungry which means you don't eat as much as you should, and also you're not getting your glucose restored as fast as you should.

Hydration is tricky as well, especially in Yosemite.  The elevation can really get to you there as it naturally has less moisture content, which increases the issues with hydration.  Also as you're likely to e sweating a fair bit, understanding your electrolyte balance can make a huge difference.  This can be addressed through what you're eating, or by using electrolyte supplements added to your water.  I found through trial and error the right amount for me, but even once you know your baseline, pay attention to the impact of conditions.

[Fultonius]

Myabe not quite what you're looking for, but don't underestimate fueling and hydration, which is REALLY easy to do.  Not from Climbing, but a few years back I trained for and did an ironman, so I was doing weekends of 6-9 hours steady cardio on Saturday and 3-5 hours on Sunday.  If I slacked at all on Hydration or Fuel on Saturday, my Sunday was crap, and it's really easy to misjudge how much you need. 

Once again not climbing, but compare as you will. On Saturday, I would eat a full breakfast heavy on the complex carbs (generally about 600-800 cal), then go workout. Workout would take in 150ish Cal/hr, plus a post workout meal(within 30 min) of 150/per hour worked), then lunch about 1.5hrs later and even though I wasn't really hungry, I had to make myself eat about a 500-700Cal meal.  Then a nap, then up and about for a bit, then dinner which I would aim for about 1200 Cal.  It's ridiculous how much Fuel you need for big hard days, I was easily taking in 5-6K Cal and it wasn't enough.  At least if you want to be able to go again the next day.  All of the during workout stuff should be simple fast carbs with the main goal of hitting the bloodstream fast to replenish the glucose being burned.  Post workout, a mix of simple carbs and a little protein.  Later meals, higher fat is OK.  I avoided the fat during and immediately after is Fat tends to satiate me longer and takes longer for the body to process, so you are less hungry which means you don't eat as much as you should, and also you're not getting your glucose restored as fast as you should.

Hydration is tricky as well, especially in Yosemite.  The elevation can really get to you there as it naturally has less moisture content, which increases the issues with hydration.  Also as you're likely to e sweating a fair bit, understanding your electrolyte balance can make a huge difference.  This can be addressed through what you're eating, or by using electrolyte supplements added to your water.  I found through trial and error the right amount for me, but even once you know your baseline, pay attention to the impact of conditions.

Refuelling: Kettle Crisps. 1 bag between 2 people.
Hydration: Chilled bottles of IPA.

Worked for us 

[Fultonius]

I used to have pretty poor multi-day stamina. If I did a "big" winter day in Scotland (e.g. 2-3 hr approach, 6-8 hours climbing, 2 hr descent) there's no way I'd be up for anything the next day.

And sometimes asleep before you got home!

 

[Sasquatch]

Refuelling: Kettle Crisps. 1 bag between 2 people.
Hydration: Chilled bottles of IPA.

Worked for us 

SHHHH!!!!  You're not supposed to spill the secret of the kettle crisps. 

[moose]

Hydration: Chilled bottles of IPA.
Worked for us 

Mmmmm..... Sierra Nevada IPA (well, when in Yosemite it would be rude not to).  I remember camping in Tuolemne and letting a couple of fellow climbers share our pitch / bear-box.  They'd been much amused by myself and my friend's nightly curry and Sierra Nevada IPA sessions (they were more chess and herbal tea types).  So, as a mark of gratitude at the end of their stay they bought us a special treat: unveiling a pack of Newcastle Brown.  A taste of home has seldom been less welcome - though we were touched and very grateful for their efforts. 

[Fultonius]

If you can get your hands on some Seirra Nevada Torpedo, or their red IPA. 

American beer is...Amazing!   Many people think that Bud Light et al is all you can get, but there's loads of great little microbreweries. Anyway, this is gettign well 

[ghisino]

What kind of stuff are you aiming for in Yosemite? Multi-day routes? Free or Aid? We found the big free routes wrecked us but the aid wasn't so bad.

the very basic aim would be just any route up el cap.
especially a conversation i've had with a guy who bailed off the nose make me think that whatever route and style , being ready to suffer and as fit as possible is a good idea.

To be honest I think that i could be ready "right now" just by accepting to bail once and suffer a lot on the second try, but  being fitter would surely make for a more enjoyable ride with extra crisps and beer in the bags 

the more ambitious aim would be having a decent shot at freerider - by decent i mean not going past A0 in terms of aid, and having a tiny but realistic chance of sending if external factors (weather, climbing partner, trip lenght, crowds, etc) were very favourable.
For this fitness is my #1 weakness right now - a 5-pitch wide crack route i did in Bavella  last month went better than expected, but the next morning i felt as if a truck had run over me - the original plan was doing another route of similar difficulty but we ended up doing something easy enoght to be climbed in approach shoes...

[ghisino]

Some thoughts from Tommy Caldwell in this vid who I guess knows a thing or two about climbing in Yosemite!

interesting.

if i understood it right: a good foundation of strenght, then single-pitch climbing fitness, then overall fitness (while managing not to drop the climbing performance)

[Fultonius]

How long are you hoping to be there for?

I didn't have an amazing run up to going this summer. I was climbing well (Fr6c trad cracks around chamonix up to 300m etc.)but the last 5 weeks consisted of 3 weeks of working offshore, then 10 days(ish) of packing, chilling with the lass, aid practise but no real climbing - certainly nothing big. So I basically tapered waaaay to soon. 

Our first route was a 400m 5.9 with loads of old-school wide flared chimneys, fat cracks and general burly awkwardness. We were destroyed the next day. Worse than I have been on any route in a long time.

On every route we did I had plenty of forearm stamina and finger strength. Even on the crux of The Rostrum (a little easier that freerider) I wasn't struggling in the fingers department.

So, the bottom line is, if you're Fr7a trad/sport onsight fit then you're probably plenty fit.

HOWEVER. You MUST MUST MUST train on proper offwidths and chimneys. I'm not sure if you have access to such things where you are. If not, just throw yourself into them on the first few days. Top rope, lead, whatever. You need to get your technique dialled or these will END you.

I would actually advocate a bit of Mark-Twight style "Upping the horsepower" during training. When you get back form a days climbing/training, do something else physical. Lift weights, run a around a field dragging a truck tyre etc. Get tough!

Also, if you're thinking of doing route that require hauling, get it totally dialled. If you doit wrong, it wastes you. Same with jumaring/jugging. Do it right and it's not too bad, do it wrong and it's harder than leading...


One mistake we made was trying to blend big aid routes and big free routes. If you want to do mainly free routes with some A0, do that from the start. Do Half Dome in a day, do NE Buttress of Higher Cathedral (the 5.9 I mentioned earlier), do Generator Crack toprope. Do Freeblast. (if you don't mind not "onsighting" freerider. We spent so long aiding at the start that we couldn't build up any fitness (and technique) for the free climbs. The Yosemite granite climbs very differently than Alpine granite. You basically don't use footholds, you just smear high up and get your feet wedged either in the corners or the cracks.

We took 1 can of beer each per night on the wall. 2 would be better

Oh, and Yosemite grades just don't correlate to French. If it's wide, or a corner, or a chimney 5.9 can feel like F6c. If it's thin, or a face, or technical 5.11+ can feel like Fr6c. Don't get psyched out by getting spanked on "easy" stuff, just get on harder stuff, it's not any harder...

[ghisino]

thanks for the detailed advice. It confirms some of my general feelings/ideas (even if i'm also concerned of being shit at finger sized splitters - any of these or i can skip this lock size?)

I'm not sure if you have access to such things where you are.

Of course i do! I can conveniently run laps on the Wherlin crack on my way to/from Cuvier Rempart!  :

(FA Jacques Wherlin 1908, grade 3+...)

Interesting point about the smearing - is it as smooth as a pair of buttocks or there are indeed features but too tiny/shitty for all day shoes?
btw by any chance have you climbed in Orco, Cadarese, Annot or Verdon OW routes? if yes which venue would be a better training in your opinion? (going next week!  )

[duncan]

I’m planning a trip to Yosemite again next June so I’ve been giving this some thought.

You’ve told us where you want to be but in order to give directions we need to know where you are now. What kind of climbing and training do you do currently?

the very basic aim would be just any route up el cap.

This aim does not require much fitness if you go slowly and use sufficient aid. My X0th birthday trip up The Salathe wasn’t quite off the couch but when first I got to Yosemite, I was finding 5.7s quite tricky. 10 days later I was on the route.  We set a leisurely pace, had a rest day on The Block, used more aid than I would have preferred, but got up the thing.

especially a conversation i've had with a guy who bailed off the nose make me think that whatever route and style , being ready to suffer and as fit as possible is a good idea.

Being prepared to suffer is definitely an advantage. Bailing is nearly always a mental issue.

For this fitness is my #1 weakness right now - a 5-pitch wide crack route i did in Bavella  last month went better than expected, but the next morning i felt as if a truck had run over me - the original plan was doing another route of similar difficulty but we ended up doing something easy enoght to be climbed in approach shoes...

This may be due to a difference in style as much as volume of climbing. As above, wide cracks are the style that ‘Euros’ struggle the most with, you can’t practice this enough before heading out there. The granite is very slick in places, I’ve experienced nothing like it in Europe, there is a transition period that can take several weeks even if you are a strong crack climber. If you’re not a strong crack climber then this is the first weakness to address.

the greatest grey zone to me is that i'd like to have the best multi-day fitness of my life, but i have no experience of how to obtain it without sacrificing performance at the move, problem, pitch level.

It depends on how you train currently. If you have been training as hard as possible (close to the point of injury/overtraining) but focusing on bouldering/sport routes then changing the focus of training will inevitably result in some loss of power. If there is the potential to increase your training intensity, and you have the time and motivation, then you could theoretically get a lot fitter whilst maintaining your current power.

the more ambitious aim would be having a decent shot at freerider - by decent i mean not going past A0 in terms of aid, and having a tiny but realistic chance of sending if external factors (weather, climbing partner, trip lenght, crowds, etc) were very favourable.

“To free climb El Cap. I feel like I have to have a bit of everything” (Tommy Caldwell)

I think big walling is one type of climbing where lifting weights and cardiovascular work are useful. My most successful trips to Yosemite were when I was cycling as main means of transport and doing heavy manual work. Ideal training would be working on a building site for six months! Now I’m soft and drive a desk I’m going to lift weights and run. Over the next six months my rough plan goes like this: focus on bouldering and short route (single-pitch) fitness for the first three months, gradually increasing intensity to the point where I am a little stronger than I need to be next summer. This also fits with a goal of increasing my RP standard a bit this winter. Come the spring, the focus shifts to increasing mileage, dropping intensity a little. Back in the day this would consist of big soloing sessions, 20-25 pitches, at 2-3 grades below my onsight limit (Arapiles was ideal for this). Bachar used to talk about doing ‘an El Cap. day’ and that was my aim. I’m too sensible for this now but I’ll be doing a number big days next spring. Setting enchainment targets is a fun way to do this. Peak hard rock IAD or N Wales hard rock routes in a weekend anyone? This does reduce your power and RP standard but is great for trad. onsighting.

I’m just keeping this thread warm for Tommy. I’m guessing he might be thinking of returning to Yosemite at some point.

[ghisino]

I’m planning a trip to Yosemite again next June so I’ve been giving this some thought.

You’ve told us where you want to be but in order to give directions we need to know where you are now. What kind of climbing and training do you do currently?

this summer i did 3 months of intense canyoning guiding in corsica, managing to do a brief evening climb once a week.
Left me very tired with ok cardio, 3 kg less, better than expected in terms of climbing shape.

did a few trad/semitrad mp at the end of the canyoning season-this is where i got the impression that i need more all day stamina as two routes in particular trashed me in terms of overall fatigue despite not feeling that desperate at the single pitch level. climbing them.

as for my usual climbing, my home venue is font  .
2 days a week on average.
This year am trying to change sectors as often as possible and not to focus too hard on projecting (hard 7b+/ easy 8a range) before real conditions are here.

I try to throw myself at every crack problem i can find but there ain't too many and they are mostly laynbacks- possibly 4 splitter jamming cracks in the whole forest, at least they are not too easy (7a-c).

on average i climb indoors once a week, normally it's a 1h30 to 2hrs bouldering session followed by 30 mins of weights/rings/pullup bar/etc, very occasionally i do rope sessions (volume-oriented unless i'm planning a sport trip, i aim for 15+ steep pitches 2 letters below my max OS, on 15 meters walls).

Once or twice a week i do some brief 30 min sessions at home, depending how i feel this could be deadhangs on a 1.5 cm edge, pullup bar, swiss ball core stuff, mini crack-machine.

since last may, on holidays i've been trying to favour trad and crack climbing.
Last may it was orco, next 2 weeks it will be annot or cadarese, etc.
In Orco, my performances on laybacks and handjam cracks made me optimistic about my future as crack climber (orco 7a/b 2nd or 3rd go, 6bs as easy as they should) though i was a bit spanked/disappointed on oddly protected slabs and finger cracks (6c's in this 2 styles felt hard and didn't os them...WTF! ).

i normally do ok in squeezes but my only OW reference is a very odd 6c+ in Bavella (two #5 flared cracks intersecting each other at 90°...one arm and one leg per crack...went ok but the grade felt totally meaningless...possibly weirdest pitch i've ever climbed)

over the last year, when i've had the rare opportunity to sport climb, i've found myself better at two styles:
-tricky and/or bouldery face climbs. (os up to 7b/+, 7c+ quickly)
-short steep and powerful, especially on 2 finger pockets (7c flash, 7c+ quickly, very close to my 1st 8a-in-a-day)
in comparison, i suffered on pumpfests and on more straightforward face climbs or slabs (where the difficulty is purely made by the size and vertical spacing of the holds/footholds).

[SA Chris]

Good CV training - run laps of the forest, ticking horrible OW and cracks on the way!

[Sasquatch]

Our first route was a 400m 5.9 with loads of old-school wide flared chimneys, fat cracks and general burly awkwardness. We were destroyed the next day. Worse than I have been on any route in a long time.

On every route we did I had plenty of forearm stamina and finger strength. Even on the crux of The Rostrum (a little easier that freerider) I wasn't struggling in the fingers department.

So, the bottom line is, if you're Fr7a trad/sport onsight fit then you're probably plenty fit.

HOWEVER. You MUST MUST MUST train on proper offwidths and chimneys. I'm not sure if you have access to such things where you are. If not, just throw yourself into them on the first few days. Top rope, lead, whatever. You need to get your technique dialled or these will END you.

I would actually advocate a bit of Mark-Twight style "Upping the horsepower" during training. When you get back form a days climbing/training, do something else physical. Lift weights, run a around a field dragging a truck tyre etc. Get tough!

2nd this.  If you want to destroy yourself and build the "Horsepower", check out Mountain Athlete.  It's basically weight training for mountain and ski guides.  I guarantee your body will be fit and ready.  I've done it for a while, and it makes a huge difference for big days out.

www.mtnathlete.com

[ghisino]

yesterday i had a sort of big day.
Routesetting 9am to 2pm
a smoothie and a piece of cake as lunch
1hr30 bouldering session + 30 min messing around with weights.

today i feel sort of lethargic, even packing my stuff for a trip seems a hard task...

[slackline]

Isn't a big component of this psychological and forcing yourself to push on regardless of how you feel?

[ghisino]

Isn't a big component of this psychological and forcing yourself to push on regardless of how you feel?

possibly!

even though i think it's more habit than will.

as a teenager i was swimming twice a week: i remember some sessions and weeks being really tough, i got way more trashed than i am used to as a climber, but at the same time it felt "less unconfortable".

still does not change the fact that if you're ubertrashed from the previous day you can't really climb -or swim- that hard...

[slackline]

So the psychology to push on regardless, combined with a training regime that consisted of pushing and training hard over multiple days (as Caldwell seems to advocate in the above video).....which requires the psychology to do so too.  No one will get far training for multiple-day fitness if they only ever do one day in a row and feel they are too tired to bother the next day (not a personal criticism I'm leveling at you here though), and "training" ingrains such things to become habit.

Thats my simplistic understanding of training, whatever you're training feels hard to start with, with repetition it becomes easier and you've "improved".  It might be in the training phase that you don't feel you can climb "hard" on the second day (and without trying you don't know), but with repetition the level to which you can actually perform on second/third/etc. days will improve (otherwise whats the point in training?).

[ghisino]

of course when you've trained it, it's not that hard anymore, and that's the point of this topic and of "diet training and injuries" really.

what i tried to imply in the last paragraph is that the constant performance awareness we (i) have as recreational climbers is in contradiction with volume-based training:
unless you have a long off season, as a boulderer/sport climber you are very likely learn by experience that trying to keep sharp by doing high intensity-lo volume most of the time is a more enjoyable and easily manageable strategy than digging deep into fatigue and then building a peak on a broader "trainability" basis (the way comp climbers do)

[duncan]

I'm not sure why I'm giving advice since you are clearly a stronger climber however...

Your usual climbing and training is bouldering. Not surprisingly, your strengths are in bouldery routes and you find long pitches and long routes hard. You've had mixed results on Euro crack climbing, I don’t know how grades for cracks at Font. or Orco compare with Yosemite, but I suspect they are not tougher. You get wiped-out by big days.

I suggest your training should target several things for Freerider and other long routes in the Valley:

1. Crack climbing, especially the offwidths. The Monster and the Scotty Burke, reputedly not much easier, but many other pitches will be challenging if you are currently finding 6c finger-cracks difficult.  You’re addressing this by getting more crack climbing experience. You’ll particularly need wide crack experience and, long cracks rather than the short bouldery pitches you are used to. Where can you learn to climb offwidths in Europe? I guess the wideboyz blog might reveal some ideas?

2. Long trad. pitches. Many visiting climbers tell stories about US crack climbing and how the first few moves are easy but they just keep coming... The crux of Freerider for many is the enduro-corner leading to the roof. This is a series of pin-scars, often shallow 2cm square holes. Sustained laybacking - or aiding in my case - with awkward gear. Trad. single-pitch endurance, a 40m pitch placing gear, can involve hanging on for a lot longer than sport. You need to get used to spending 30+ mins on a pitch.

3. The multi-day endurance you identify as your main issue. There are several elements to this.

Physical: it seems to me you need to increase the both length of time and metres a day you currently train by quite a lot especially as you are coming from a low endurance base. You’ll need to drop the grade/intensity. Yosemite is rarely very steep. You also need to get accustomed to doing one long day and immediately following it by another, Fultonius’ Brit. climbing holiday style.

Mental: This is why most people fail. I think slackline has a point, it helps to be familiar with the feeling of getting up in the morning battered and not wanting to climb but doing so and performing at 90%. If you can stay relaxed about the exposure, and the whole living out of a haul-bag thing, you'll have a lot more energy for the actual climbing. This might be one reason why you find long routes unexpectedly tiring.

Skills: familiarity with big routes, looking after yourself on the wall, and the logistics of climbing El Cap. is very important. Climbing in this style can be a battle of attrition. Being efficient in hauling and wall-living, conserving skin, energy and psyche, is crucial. Fortunately there is a huge amount of beta about this now: read, digest and practice.

Can you get to the Verdon and get on the old-school classics? The style of climbing is different but it’s good practice for many other aspects of Yosemite. No rest days allowed! There are even aid routes to practice your vertical camping. Mello might be even more specific as it is granite.

Going back to your first question, there is a lot to do here and, if you really embrace it, your short-term bouldering/sport performance will take a hit. You can’t have your cake and eat it.

Let us know how you get on.

[webbo]

Do you not climb at where training for multi pitch climbing was invented i.e Font circuits for alpine climbing.
If it was me I would spend a couple of hours doing some hard bouldering then finish the day with a couple of easier circuits. you could even practice your hauling by lugging a mat up after you on the circuits.