[T_B]

Tequila Mockingbird at Chee Tor has a history of bolts being added and taken away. When Ron first did it, there were wires on the initial wall. The first bolt is at about 20-25 feet. When the rock broke, as I understand it, Zippy placed a bolt on the lower wall. This was chopped and, rumour has it, Ron re-climbed it without the bolt. The lower section of this route has since shed more holds it would seem, as it's written up as E6/7c in the Rockfax. It feels more like F7c+ or F8a. One person can have a bad day, but three of us tried it yesterday and put it at this grade. It's about F7a+ to get to the first bolt. It's still runout after that. I posted on here recently that I'd cleaned it, but in fact it took a lot more cleaning yesterday to get it into a climable state for mortals (Bransby apparently fell off the last hard move on sight last week, which is pretty f*ckin impressive, as it would have still been very dusty on most of the holds). So until the last week or so this route hasn't been climbed for.... years. When you consider Free Monster and Powerplant (though different styles) are the best routes at this grade in the Peak (and are way more naturally dirty than the Tequila wall). Well, with a bolt in the start, Tequila would be a much more doable proposition and be a highly sought after route again that wouldn't need cleaning every year. Unless you have a massive clip stick, you have to climb Mortlock's to get onto Tequila, which is a right pain. Would it really be so bad to add a bolt to the initial wall? This route is so good, it really does deserve more attention.

[Johnny Brown]

From Fawcett on Rock

By 1981 I was using pre-placed bolt protection to push the walls. If bolts were to be accepted by british climbers I knew they would have to be 'sportingly' placed. Perhaps in the beginning I overdid it. On Tequila Mockingbird at Chee Tor I arranged things so that the first 7 metres were unprotected: a friend of mine promptly fell off and broke his wrists. I felt guilty about that but there's no doubt it lessened the ethical impact of the bolts.

No mention of wires there?

Generally I'm suspicious of justifying bolts on the grounds of popularity.

Some similar debate been had here

[dave]

I would have thought the general all-time-low interest in hard trad peak limestone is the cause here, not specifically the state of the lower wall. Adding a bolt is only addressing the symptoms, not the cause. question?

[Bonjoy]

How did Bransby nearly do the route, groundup or by stick-clipping the first?

[andy popp]

If you want to do a good sport route on this wall why not try Boobs? (I've been trying to get people to try this route for years, but with little sucess)

[Bonjoy]

From Fawcett on Rock

By 1981 I was using pre-placed bolt protection to push the walls. If bolts were to be accepted by british climbers I knew they would have to be 'sportingly' placed. Perhaps in the beginning I overdid it. On Tequila Mockingbird at Chee Tor I arranged things so that the first 7 metres were unprotected: a friend of mine promptly fell off and broke his wrists. I felt guilty about that but there's no doubt it lessened the ethical impact of the bolts.

No mention of wires there?

Generally I'm suspicious of justifying bolts on the grounds of popularity.

Some similar debate been had here

Since the thread linked to above I have thought a bit about one of the things you said:

I look at this from another perspective, and I'm referring as much to sport routes as I am trad. I can't see it from a the point of view of 'disrepair'. If the rock's natural state is to be 'unclimbable' then the short period of its life it has been maintained in a climbable state should be viewed as an experiment and at odds with normality. If the route doesn't prove to be popular enough to be self-maintaining or to motivate regular cleaning then the experiment has failed and it should be left to return to its natural state. If fashions change the records will remain and they can be unearthed.

We had this debate a couple of years back at the international meet on welsh trad - there seemed to be a sense of panic that routes were being 'lost'. Obviously the argument here was for planned cleaning rather than retroing. My feelings were identical  - so what? Let them go. As Grimer said, ultimately either individuals will be arsed to climb or clean stuff, or they won't.

I think a lot of these things get done in the first place (again, I mean sport as much as trad here) cos the main motivation is that of development and new routes. Sadly it seems for many that's the only time motivation will be high enough to do them.

The idea of the cleaned route as an experiment at odds with the rock's natural state has some validity. However the the outcomes of the experiments are not as simple as you suggest. As I see it, due to various factors including line, protection, rock stability, location, tendency to get dirty/vegetated, some routes lend themselves to being good trad routes, some to being good sport routes and some to being neither. By your assessment twenty odd years of neglect  means the route is defunct. By my assessment it suggest the route might not be best suited to the trad approach, it might however be a good sport route, or it might just be a shit route. It's not about what will make the route most popular, it's about which approach is the best most appropriate treatment of a line, trad, sport or left to nature. Some routes are rubbish as trad routes but brilliant as sport routes. Once something has proved to be unsuitable for trad, is it not valid to then re-run the experiment with the sport approach?
 BTW this is a general piece of musing, not something I thought in reference to Tequila.

[fatdoc]

Bonjoy has a very interesting point there...

one that I'm in favour of... with some sort of ground rule / concensus on what and where, though TBH apart from the dale and perhps some stuff under the road round from LPT where else would this be needed??

 

[andy popp]

Much of Clwyd limestone to start with. I haven't ever been on it but its surely likely that Tequila would make a very good sport route, as would Basic Channel to its right (can't really remember but this isn't a clip up is it?)

[Johnny Brown]

How did Bransby nearly do the route, groundup or by stick-clipping the first?

C'mon, Jon, have you met the guy? He doesn't even own a stick.

As I see it, due to various factors including line, protection, rock stability, location, tendency to get dirty/vegetated, some routes lend themselves to being good trad routes, some to being good sport routes and some to being neither... Once something has proved to be unsuitable for trad, is it not valid to then re-run the experiment with the sport approach?

I agree with what you've said Jon, I just think folk should think very carefully before drilling. I see it as a very fundamental act.

Of course Tequila doesn't really fit in with this, for a start it's already bolted. And I suspect a route of this grade at a crag like Chee Tor will always need a brush at the start of the season.

Another reason routes are perhaps being 'lost' to vegetation is that our more environmentally aware generation is reluctant to garden as enthusiastically as in the past. Unfortunately this is often a bit misguided as evidenced by the HFC reaction. A bit of knowledge goes a long way here, good conservation management usually involves far more removal of vegetation than planting. I'm sure between Jon, Henry and I we could get some good info out to peeps if they were interested?

[T_B]

 The idea of the cleaned route as an experiment at odds with the rock's natural state has some validity. However the the outcomes of the experiments are not as simple as you suggest. As I see it, due to various factors including line, protection, rock stability, location, tendency to get dirty/vegetated, some routes lend themselves to being good trad routes, some to being good sport routes and some to being neither. By your assessment twenty odd years of neglect  means the route is defunct. By my assessment it suggest the route might not be best suited to the trad approach, it might however be a good sport route, or it might just be a shit route. It's not about what will make the route most popular, it's about which approach is the best most appropriate treatment of a line, trad, sport or left to nature. Some routes are rubbish as trad routes but brilliant as sport routes. Once something has proved to be unsuitable for trad, is it not valid to then re-run the experiment with the sport approach?
 BTW this is a general piece of musing, not something I thought in reference to Tequila.

Well put. Tequila has 3 or 4 bolts and a couple of pegs and a 20 foot runout to the first bolt. It's basically a sport route but with the first bolt missing. I think it would be a better route with an extra bolt.

I suspect Basic Channel would also be a 3 star sport route if it was OK to bolt the upper section (it shares it with Ninth Life (E7 and grass filled)). None of the guidebooks give it any stars but the rock looks as good as on Tequila.

[Bonjoy]

You mean Eyes of Fire, Ninth Life is on Two Tier? Doesn't it have a twin bolt before it joins EoF so you can lower off there for a sport route 8a?

[T_B]

You mean Eyes of Fire, Ninth Life is on Two Tier? Doesn't it have a twin bolt before it joins EoF so you can lower off there for a sport route 8a?

Sorry, Eyes of Fire. There seem to be some new glue ins, so perhaps that's it, you lower off before joining the Eyes of Fire groove. It's an impressive swathe of rock though. I haven't got the Wye Valley guidebook at hand but pretty sure Eyes of Fire has some weird description that talks about clipping one of the bolts on Tequila?! If so, that's definitely a bit of a none route from that 'transitional' era.

A new project until the tide ebbs at Rubicon? 

[Bonjoy]

I have always fancied the look of the Chee tor sport routes.

[luckyjez]

I'd have thought that the Ogre would/could be a great and popular sport route with new and re-sited bolts. Not been on it but i understand that some of them need long slings on for a red-point i.e they're in the wrong place (unless this is dictated by rock quality - unlikely on that wall though). I re-bolted Boo many (10+) years ago and then discovered that it was a little beyond me. The bolting on that is fine though as it's steady to the first bolt (same height as Tequila one).

[T_B]

I'd have thought that the Ogre would/could be a great and popular sport route with new and re-sited bolts. Not been on it but i understand that some of them need long slings on for a red-point i.e they're in the wrong place (unless this is dictated by rock quality - unlikely on that wall though). I re-bolted Boo many (10+) years ago and then discovered that it was a little beyond me. The bolting on that is fine though as it's steady to the first bolt (same height as Tequila one).

The Ogre has really old weird bolts on it and is totally filthy. I bet it is a superb route, but it would be crazy to try it in its current state.

The great thing about these routes are that they seem to stay pretty dry or at least dry quickly following rain. The don't suffer from the seepage that, for example, the Cornice does. Yesterday the Cornice was looking very wet, yet all these vertical walls on Chee Tor were in good nick.

[El Mocho]

How did Bransby nearly do the route, groundup or by stick-clipping the first?

C'mon, Jon, have you met the guy? He doesn't even own a stick.

You're not quite right Johnny, my dad bought a clip stick when we went to red rocks when I was 12, it is made from a flexible tent pole and pretty bendy when in use. You are right that I didn't use it on Tequila though.

The bottom is fairly spicy but it added to the route for me. I was thinking that if people wanted to reduce the E factor they could just take a bouldering mat?

I was also thinking about trying the route without the second bolt (getting a bit rusty and a good nut 1 just below it) and possibly without the 3rd bolt and/or top peg as there is another wire in between. That said I don't know if I will get it next go clipping everything!

However if general consensus was to replace the bolts etc I wouldn't be too upset - if it led to more people climbing down there.

Good job T_B doing a second clean, I was going to give it a brush before I next tried it as it did feel pretty dusty on my go.

[AndiT]

Generally I'm suspicious of justifying bolts on the grounds of popularity.

Yeah, next thing you know people will be landscaping landings to make things more popular 

[Johnny Brown]

Let me know when you want to try it Andi and I'll put the landing back how it was.

Is it true you've been on Radio 4 saying The Sloth was first climbed by Joe Brown?

[Somebody's Fool]

I heard the broadcast in question on the way to work.  My mental alarm bells started ringing when I heard Joe Brown's name, but it was swiftly followed by 'and Don Whillans.' I assumed it was said that way round because he's the most famous climber out of the two. In layman's terms.

I thought it a good broadcast Andi, although obviously I'm a partisan audience. And at seven in the morning, a story about the mighty Roaches makes a pleasant change from uppity twats talking the country into a recession.

[AndiT]

Shugar, I missed that! Will have to search the net for it. It was a strange meeting, 30 power rangers vs Reg, Pix and Dr Flitcroft.

JB, cheers, that'll be great if you could, I wouldn't want to enjoy it too much. I'm sure it's not that hard anyway 'if you use your loaf...'

[GCW]

Interesting debate.  Anyone know Big Ron to ask his current opinion?

[Drew]

My mental alarm bells started ringing when I heard Joe Brown's name, but it was swiftly followed by 'and Don Whillans.' I assumed it was said that way round because he's the most famous climber out of the two. In layman's terms.

I suppose also, Joe led the first pitch, and Don led the roof.

[Paz]

Off topic, but hey.

I'm sure between Jon, Henry and I we could get some good info out to peeps if they were interested?

Yes, we are.  The crags are choking, and we don't all want to clean by abseil nor rely on the few who enthusiastically do, now matter how impressive and thorough a job they do.  So good guidebook obeying climbers like myself need letting off our leashes so we can garden the fuck out of everything while we're actually climbing it, so other people might consider doing the same routes too.  You boys have bene brushing lichen and green off the grit for years (or unintentionally killing it off with chalk), but a lot of us have or have had second thoughts about a bit of grass and/or ivy.  Rip it out I say, you're resting your arm while you do it, so you climb harder. 

[Fiend]

For Chee Tor I'd tend to be in the "new bridge / tree clearance / severe de-vegating" camp rather than the bolting camp...