[r-man]

Saw what you did there.

[dave]

I hoped that joke wood work.

[Bonjoy]

....the hardest route in the UK...

I suspect Steve Mac might disagree with you on that assessment. Hardest trad route maybe.

[r-man]

Good god, do I need to get my lawyers to check my posts? Of course I meant trad. 

Otherwise we'd have to mention his Gaskinship...







Enough puns Dave, this thread is getting a bit rhapshoddy.

[Jaspersharpe]

Enough puns Dave, this thread is getting a bit rhapshoddy.

Ouch!

Caldwell's climbed at least one 9a+ hasn't he (Flex Luthor). I'd say that puts him in the "World Class" bracket for sport climbing (unless you now need to have done three or four to qualify). 

[jwi]

So if I'm after physically hard and reasonably well-protected trad-climbing, preferably steep stamina routes harder than French 8b, what other lines are there in the UK?

[Somebody's Fool]

Harvest?

[Danny]

Many? No. Some? Yes, certainly recently. None have had half this level of media attention though, which is the context this comment needs taking in.

I can believe the headwall is foreshortened in that topo photo but it looks like an indirect finish about 20-25 foot long. Requiem is undeniably a classic line, this isn't.

Perhaps, but I'll stick with an unqualified "many" thanks.

On the "shit" classics front, I have to say the equilibrium does little to inspire my aspirational punterish mind; crappy looking arete with huge ledge some way up - gear -then a precarious lookin boulder problem which appears to be mostly fall-offable.

IF I had the ability I'd rather slam my knob in a fridge door than put effort into something like this route, when compared to, say, Divided Years. That IS a stunning, hard and continuous quality line that gets my punterish juices going.

Still, each to their own.

[robertostallioni]

IF I had the ability I'd rather slam my knob in a fridge door than put effort into something like this route, when compared to, say, Divided Years.
Still, each to their own.

Honestly, It's not THAT hard. You just pull your pants down, thrust your hips and bobs your uncle

[tomtom]

I'm just a bit bored of hearing about it all the time... esp UKC which seems to be in some sort of mastabatory article multiple orgasm mode with the route..

[Danny]

I'm just a bit bored of hearing about it all the time... esp UKC which seems to be in some sort of mastabatory article multiple orgasm mode with the route..

Couldn't agree more.

[Teaboy]

So if I'm after physically hard and reasonably well-protected trad-climbing, preferably steep stamina routes harder than French 8b, what other lines are there in the UK?

Mission Impossible in the Ogwen, a Neil Carson route though I do think it is mostly protected by pegs.
That thin crack with a pinkie mono that Birkett did on Scafell East (Welcome to the Hard Times, maybe???)

[dave]

captain invincible?

[Three Nine]

So if I'm after physically hard and reasonably well-protected trad-climbing, preferably steep stamina routes harder than French 8b, what other lines are there in the UK?

Mission Impossible in the Ogwen, a Neil Carson route though I do think it is mostly protected by pegs.
That thin crack with a pinkie mono that Birkett did on Scafell East (Welcome to the Hard Times, maybe???)

Its called Welcome to the Cruel World, I think, E9 7a?

[Jaspersharpe]

Aye Welcome To Hard Times is an E2 at Staden. Good route actually but it's not quite 8b.

[nash1]

Aye Welcome To Hard Times is an E2 at Staden. Good route actually but it's not quite 8b.

Must well protected to get E2 if it was 8b tho! 

I think it is funny that folk reckon Rhapsody is overgraded.
If you think about what Dave M has done over the last few years. First off he repeats two (three?) E10's (DY, Breathless & Slingshot thingy) in a few days and downgrades them all. He tickles his way up a few Birket E9's again spending only a few days on them. Does a megamonster E10 at Hell's Lum (watch the vid, it is proper scary) over a few weekends. All these grades are accepted.
In the meantime, he spends 2 YEARS on Rhapsody. Admittedly getting fitter all the time, but the time scales cannot compare here.
Remember, the E grade is the overall grade. How can it not be E11 based on these timelines? Sounds more like E12 than E10 to me

[Paul B]

Aye Welcome To Hard Times is an E2 at Staden. Good route actually but it's not quite 8b.

Must well protected to get E2 if it was 8b tho! 

I think it is funny that folk reckon Rhapsody is overgraded.
If you think about what Dave M has done over the last few years. First off he repeats two (three?) E10's (DY, Breathless & Slingshot thingy) in a few days and downgrades them all. He tickles his way up a few Birket E9's again spending only a few days on them. Does a megamonster E10 at Hell's Lum (watch the vid, it is proper scary) over a few weekends. All these grades are accepted.

Are you sure about that last statement? As i'm fairly confident that people who'd been on DY thought it was overgraded and that there was a general feeling that the same applied to 'that slingshot thing'...

[Jaspersharpe]

Depends if he means the downgraded grade or the original overgraded grade. 

[nash1]

That's part of my (boring) point. He did the E10's, downgraded them all - thus proving he is not a grade machine saying "I've done E10 blah blah".
His E9's were harder. The Hells Lum E10 was harder still and Rhappers was E11.
Comparing Rhapsody with say Breathless would make it E13 if Breathless stayed at E10. Gulp... Never written E13 before. Sounds like a food additive.

[Bonjoy]

I'm not sure it follows that just because someone downgrades other peoples routes they won't overgrade their own  . You don't have to think too hard to find examples of climbers who have downgraded other peoples things and then had their own routes downgraded in turn.
I'm not suggesting Dave has over/under graded Rhapsody, I haven't a clue.

[ferret]

dont remember dave m publicly downgrading these routes. in fact "the slingshot thing" is climbed by him on a video and given the grade of e10. i actually thought it ws more a case of oh thank god somebodys repeated that so it can finally get down graded and then for whatever reason he didnt publicly do so. in the case of the slingshot thingy every man and his dog knew an (easy??) 8a boulder to a no hands rest big enough to put yor harness on followed by an e7 headwall does not make e10. always seemed to me a bit like doing the joker then walking 5 minutes up the crag and doing shine on and claiming e10.
i think 1 of the main problems with the grade of e11 is, e10 is not a grade that has been fully consolidated yet. of the e10s that exist very few hav had repeats and those that hav (with the exception of equilibrium?) seem to hav some kinda issues with the grade.
i seem to remember birkett saying something along the lines of breathless being easier than his e9s (interpret as u will), divided years i hav heard from people who hav top roped the route is a 4star e8 lacking traffic because of its location, and the slingshot thingy (i like that name) was graded by some sort of mathmatical multiplication table.
i think its obvious people r gonna question such a big grade, especially wen u can fall of it without serious injury and so few established e10s exist. Somebody repeating this in 4 days (all be it one of the greatest climbers) is only gonna add to speculation.
whatever the grade good effort to all the guys who hav succeeded on what is obviously a very hard route.

[r-man]

Blind Vision took me three 1 hour sessions of top roping (curtailed by rain) followed by a lead in less than good visibility. It comprises of a highball (but not exceptionally highball) Font 7c+ or 8a, followed by an E8. But the boulder problem is hard enough to prevent a good proportion of E8 or even a few E9 climbers succeeding on it.

My opinion is that an E10 climber should dispatch Font 8a no problem (if not Font 8b). And anyone who can climb the boulder problem should find the top wall pretty easy unless they have very little experience in headpointing.

Other feelings… Blind Vision is definitely easier than If Six was Nine (which I have done the moves on during a 30 min session on the way home from Breathless). Its also easier than the Scottish E9s and I’d say it felt like 2 grades easier than Rhapsody. However, its harder than Breathless and Divided Years (but then they are E8s!).So these days I am getting more confused about the difference between the grades at E8 and above.

If DY and Breathless end up as E10s then Rhapsody might be the first E13. If I repeat all the E10s in the UK and they are all E8, I'll bring Rhapsody down to E9 or 10. Grades are not fixed they exist only in climbers heads, they can change.

[cofe]

Didn't Ricky Bell reckon DY was E9, not E8? Just to confuse things further.

[Adam Lincoln]

divided years i hav heard from people who hav top roped the route is a 4star e8

Well Ricky Bell has just repeated it, placing gear on lead, and called it E9. I also hear Irish Si is close too. Be interesting to hear Si's thoughts.

[Adam Lincoln]

Didn't Ricky Bell reckon DY was E9, not E8? Just to confuse things further.

Just typed my below reply when you posted that. Indeed.