[DrStatham]

Sorry if someone's already recommended this but try reading "the way of the Rock Warrior" by Steve Ilgner. Sounds a bit  I know but it might help.

Cheers

D

[Fiend]

That will be "The Rock Warrior's Way" by Arno Ilgner. I seem to recall recommending it to Ms. Nut when a couple of years ago.

[cider nut]

Houdini - Good thing that forum threads enable you to post replies then eh, to clarify things when it turns out the OP wasn't clear.  It's hard for me to know how my initial post will sound to everyone, but who cares if I didn't manage to write it in a very clear way straight off, I'm sure I can expect a little leeway - I've tried my best to make it clearer but if it still doesn't make sense (which you seem to be implying) then maybe you're the wrong person to reply and could leave it be instead of berating me for it?  If you dislike thinking about climbing and talking about it so much, why are you replying to a thread which is based around thinking about climbing, where it seems you haven't even experienced the situation I'm trying to explain?  I did say on Thursday that I've bot enough to go one now anyway, so you just seem a glutton for punishment to keep coming back...

Fiend - And you also know full that I've read it and what I think about it.

[SA Chris]

I don't know what you think about and am interested in opinions on it?

[cider nut]

Nearest I can get to what I think you are talking about is the feeling when I can't do a boulder problem that I have previously climbed with relative ease - I don't mean when I can't do it first go, I mean when I can't do it at all. This usually hits me hard when I can neither remember my old sequence, nor work it out anew. Am I on the right track for the type of feeling you are talking about, Cider?

Yeah, kind of like that but especially if you're using that as your warm up route and it throws you off your main aim for the day.  Actually this thread has helped me pin down the problem a bit more.  I think the reason it happened last year and never before, is that I found the grade jump to HVS quite different to breaking into other grades - HVS was the first grade I found really hard, (and also the one I'd worked on for the longest, including a couple of plateaus).  That made a big divide in my head between HVS and all lower grades, which is where I think the whole problem came from.  Luckily, this year HVS has suddenly seemed a lot less hard and just like another grade, so maybe I won't even get the problem any more.  But IMO it's still useful to discuss just in case and interesting to think about (so I can think about climbing at work, instead of thinking about work, lol).

SA Chris - Were you talking to me?  I don't understand your question...

[SA Chris]

Sorry, missed a word.

Fiend - And you also know full that I've read it and what I think about it.

Should have said "what you think about it" referring to that book (apologies, knackering weekend charging around highlands).

[cider nut]

Sorry, missed a word.

Fiend - And you also know full that I've read it and what I think about it.

Should have said "what you think about it" referring to that book (apologies, knackering weekend charging around highlands).

Ah gotcha.  It wasn't the typo I was referring to (hadn't even noticed that), just wasn't sure what the comment referred to.

I really rate the book, and I learnt a lot from it.  There's lots of bits you read and go 'oh yeah, that makes sense, never thought of it that way'.  I thought it would be quite convoluted and hard to read and make sense of, but it was actually quite clear, if a litle 'self-help' (but I didn't mind that).  I'd recommend it to anyone that likes thinking about climbing   In fact I think that everyone could get *something* from it, but if you don't really struggle with the mental side of climbing (and perhaps boulderers have less mental issues than tradders?) you'd be better off buying a conventional training book instead.

[Paz]

I think Arno describes one good approach for certain types of climb, but maybe doesn't explain his reasoning to allow the reader to apply it to other areas.  He just says `this is what you should think' and `this is what you shouldn't think'  Cheers mate, do you know of any good cults I can join too?

But then I'm a Marius Morstad fan because, between the lines of his training bumf, he told it like it was.  His advice is available for free somewhere.  

I'd just like to further berate the ignore it and do something harder approach.  I mean, that's not much good when you're committed on a bold route if it's even possible.  I always liked that semi-beta description from Climb about Hovis, that basically after the start says `now with total confidence in your ability to climb 4c head for the top'.  I don't think you necessarily get such confidence simply from having achieved harder grades once or twice.  I think it can come from having finished off lots and lots of VSs.  Even if the odd one feels like a struggle, especially thrutchy ones, well I mean they all are in their own way, in my experience this sort of climbing seldom turns up on the delicate top sections of bold routes that you don't want to fuck up.  I'd even say do as many as you can, until you know when you feel like you want to move up a grade.  And then you can guarantee you won't fuck up the easy sections of the routes you're ultimately aiming for.  And you'll have learnt lots of different moves and techniques, even things that aren't specific moves, like climbing vegetated rock and getting back on route, and stressed proofed them, so that you can rely on them.  And you might even have had fun on the way.  

It's probably no surprise to people if I say I don't have a happy la la lead head, but nor would I swap it for one, because I think a sword has to be forged in fire and I've achieved as much as a lot of other people with it.  If you will ask questions that are in effect general, like `how do I become a better climber' or even `how do I remain i control of my mind' then you will get a wide range of answers, but I think I can answer a different one, and give my approach to the above two at the same time.  As it's recently meant I can climb the bold routes I've wanted to for ages, in good style, but more importantly without having to take any stupid risks - there's no reason why I shouldn't do them again.  Basically I don't know how to avoid the `this should be easy' feeling, anymore than any other, however I do know what I do when I get it:

If you fail an onsight due to a fall then just use the gear to work the route and redpoint it, draw a line under it, maybe work out what you could have done differently to onsight it, or stop feeling bad if there was nothing you could have done to onsight it anyway (normally if there was no schoolboy error it boils down to `tried harder'), then do something else.  Moreoften you haven't fallen yet (while not being scared of falling is good, not falling has often given me a tick and onsight stolen from the verge of failure).  So if you're starting to get it (the feeling the route's harder than you thought) then you just have to concentrate on the fact that the route is the grade it is, and work out how to climb it at that grade.  Or if it helps you raise your game you could tell yourself it's a grade harder (you'll no doubt tell your friends this later anyway) and concentrate on working out how to climb it at that one.  You might need to just step back (maybe not literally, if on route) and give yourself a minute.  For it to sink in that your'e on a different route, it's harder than you thought, and things aren't going to plan, so you'll have to try harder than you thought you'd have to, and just to give yourself a minute to sort yourself out.  I'd also start persevering, but for your belayer's sake as much as your own make sure any investigative approach results in something constructive, either looking for holds, equally importantly ruling out possibilities of holds as shit and so identifiying the best, experimenting with moves, or in placing more gear.  When you think it's all going wrong, I reckon that's kind of all the more reason to be thinking how can I use that hold, how can I stand on that one, how can I get over there, can I get any gear there, etc.  Although I think `fear of falling' is often a distraction from the real issue, fear is a big part of it, for example if your big route's comitting and on a sea cliff I should hope you're a bit scared as it's a serious environment.  I say if you're scared just place more gear.  That's what it's there for.  Anywya, so far I've assumed you've got a position to return to.  On a big stamina route I'd break it down into little sections, always heading for a possibility of gear, a good hold or even a rest.  You know one of these will come up sooner or later if you stay on route (because even if it's a solo, there will be good holds and rests for its grade).  As you make progress the route's going to gradually improving your mood as you achieve more and more intermediate goals.  And if it doesn't then maybe it's time for a gloves off no holds barred fight.  Failing or losing's OK, you don't want to fail just because you gave up, because you'll wonder what would've happned if you didn't, maybe even if you'd have made it (or I would anyway).  Certainly not many would pay to see that fight; the fans would be pissed off.  Personally sometimes I just want to know what will happen even if it involves fallling (where the gear's good).  If the pitch's sustained but shorter (or the meat of the grade is packed into a shorter section) so there's no rests, then if I can go into happy la la mode (sorry, the zone) then great, but otherwise it's even more important for me to keep at the task in hand.  

Sorry it's long, but I've never been able to drip feed you all my tips.  

[Three Nine]

Paz - do your fucking PHD! 

[cider nut]

Come to think of it, my impression of the HVS/everything-below-it divide could have been amplified because a person that I used to climb with a fair amount never used to climb anything below HVS.  This only occurred to me yesterday as I was reading something on UKC (http://www.ukclimbing.com/forums/t.php?t=301729) and realised that not everybody leaves VS behind as a grade when they get better - which made me think that I'd let a bit of a grade-snob mindset creep in without knowing it.  Now I've banished all that, I might be on track!  We'll see...

[grumpycrumpy]

You can't go wrong with VS's . Had one of my finest should I go for this moments on Crows Nest at Birchens .... Class route , good one to do to get over any pyschological problems you may have with slabs .....

[Falling Down]

Didn't we do this thread almost exactly a year ago?

I look forward to May/June 2009......

[butters]

Didn't we do this thread almost exactly a year ago?

I look forward to May/June 2009......

I think that the wording was subtly different but all merges into one after a while.

When ever I find a lower grade climb difficult I just put it down to being fat\weak\hungover punter.   

bluebrad

[cider nut]

Didn't we do this thread almost exactly a year ago?

I look forward to May/June 2009......

Feel free to link me to it.  I don't follow this forum enough to know what's already been posted ad it's not exactly the easiest thing to search for.

[Falling Down]

http://ukbouldering.com/board/index.php/topic,7278.msg106672.html#msg106672

[Jaspersharpe]

 

It is the same. I think cider nut needs to cut down on the cider. It's affecting her memory.

[cider nut]

Funnily enough, I had a suspision that was what you were talking about, but I thought I'd give you the benefit of the doubt.  So they're both question of a psychological nature, how exactly does that make them the same?  Just because they both mention a push into HVS?  Well well done for skim reading.  The older thread was about not being able to climb at all some days and being wildly inconsistent, the more recent one was about being able to climb hard stuff without trouble (which I couldn't do before) but mistakenly assuming I can climb everything of an easier grade.   They're no more the same than two questions on physical training, but no doubt there's many of those.  I'm happy for you that you're not held back by head games, but don't knock others who are.

Both threads were significantly different questions as far as I'm concerned, with different solutions.  I'm on top of the first issue, and I feel I'm on top of this one now, no thanks to the bullshit on here. 

Don't worry, there won't be any more threads from me, I know where I don't fit in.

[Jaspersharpe]

Don't worry, there won't be any more threads from me, I know where I don't fit in.

After four pages of people attempting to help you with your problem then I think that's a tad harsh. 

[Falling Down]

Don't worry, there won't be any more threads from me, I know where I don't fit in.

Blimey... don't take the hump.  It was only a joke...

I think everyone has been very generous in sharing their advice and responses to your questions on both these threads.

[SA Chris]

Aye, no need for a flounce.

[cider nut]

You make it sound like people have gone out of their way to reply to the thread - that's what a forum's for.

[SA Chris]

You make it sound like people have gone out of their way to reply to the thread.

You don't think anyone has gone out their way? I think quite a few people have gone out of the way of the usual banter and pisstaking to give some well informed and thought out opinions for a second time. This was followed by a bit of light banter and fun, which you appear to have offence and threatened to flouce off about.

[Jaspersharpe]

I'm happy for you that you're not held back by head games, but don't knock others who are.

I don't see anyone who's done this.

I'm on top of the first issue, and I feel I'm on top of this one now, no thanks to the bullshit on here. 

 ??? People were trying to help.

You make it sound like people have gone out of their way to reply to the thread - that's what a forum's for.

Somone asks for help, other people try to help them. Perhaps they have gone out of their way to do this, unless they were replying by mistake of course.    It may be what a forum is for but there's no obligation for anyone to give their advice and people (you included) are normally pretty grateful that others take a bit of their time to think about and attemp to solve their problems.

I don't get your last posts cider. They seem rather out of character based on what you have written previously.

[grumpycrumpy]

Hmmmm .....  .... I personally was trying to help ... Unusual for me .... You said you had a pychological problem with slabs ... The one I suggested is perfect .... Give it a whirl ......

[cider nut]

It's hardly a flounce, I just don't get on with the 'banter and pisstaking' on here despite trying, so if you can't take the heat etc.etc.

I'll still post where I think it's useful, but have given up on threads like these.