[Bubba]

its the same with everything, photography, climbing, the lot. Hence why gaskins and jerry could crush like fuck in boreals, malc was a worldbeater in scarpas but mere punters like the rest of us debate for days about whether to buy dragons on solutions.

Damn right. When I used to do motorbike trackdays often the fastest guys were on bikes that the mags would have you believe were obsolete. People get far too hung up on kit.

[webbo]

Fitness is a big part of it but you still need ability.

An ultra-fit XC whippet isn't necessarily going to be able to ride fast through rocks, roots and drops.

that old chestnut again.
i've been a round long enough to remember when mountain bike racing first started and the mountain bike guys reckoned that guys who raced cyclo cross would have no chance in mountain bike race as they wouldn't be skilled enough.
i think the likes of baker,gould and craig usually came in 30 mins in front in a 3 hour race.

[Bubba]

Hardly an old chestnut, i've seen it plenty of times myself. I've seen xc riders crash on bmx tracks, good riders scare themselves teetering down steeps and end up walking, flying over the bars or hitting trees; people freezing and crashing out as soon as they get air, etc.

You telling me a cyclo-cross rider would do well in a downhill race because of their fitness? Don't think so. I'm not surprised that they won early XC MTB races though- I suspect that cyclo-cross riders are pretty skilled; riding something that's akin to a road bike fast over wet mud and grass takes a lot of bike handling skill. And anyway, just how technical were early XC races?

Last weekend we were doing the Innerleithen DH courses - one of our party, Matt has ten years of BMX under his belt but has only been downhilling for three months. He was awesome on the DH - his BMX career has taught him elite technical ability.

It's interesting that on the 7 Stanes downhill courses, the official advice on the start boards is as follows "a good standard of fitness is recommended but technical skills are more important."

[webbo]

you didn't say a downhill race you said roots,rocks and drops.all of which are usually standard in most cross country courses.yes i agree that a cyclo cross riders fitness alone is not gonna win them a downhill race.
a lot of top cyclists have cross over skills,there was a french sprinter for one of the pro teams who used to place in the world cup downhills.

[Falling Down]

>And anyway, just how technical were early XC races?

I did an early MTB race from Rivelin dam over Stanage Pole down the Causeway and back again in 1989.  A cyclo-cross rider won it by a mile through picking up his bike and running up and down the causeway - brilliant.

You're right about people getting hung up on kit though Bubbs... I remember Shaun Palmer winning a DH event on a hardtail wearing jeans, a Slayer T-Shirt and piss-pot when everyone else was in fully body armour.

[Bubba]

Palmer is a legend.

[Bubba]

a lot of top cyclists have cross over skills,there was a french sprinter for one of the pro teams who used to place in the world cup downhills.

Absolutely - people who do that are amazing.

I'm not saying fitness isn't important, just saying that you can't replace ability with fitness, and ofc the reverse works too - at the end of a day downhilling in the Alps, my hands were cramping up and my shoulders and legs were jelly - I should have been fitter.

[fatdoc]

 

Oh and The orange 5 range is hardly cheap unless you go entry level, and fatdoc you know you want a Pace.

i've said it before but just in case you missed it, ring up Orange and ask if they have any deals on.  I got a grand off an Orange by buying direct.  I don't think the 5's are worth the full price but they are bloody good bikes.

[fatdoc]

a lot of top cyclists have cross over skills,there was a french sprinter for one of the pro teams who used to place in the world cup downhills.

Absolutely - people who do that are amazing.

I'm not saying fitness isn't important, just saying that you can't replace ability with fitness, and ofc the reverse works too - at the end of a day downhilling in the Alps, my hands were cramping up and my shoulders and legs were jelly - I should have been fitter.

Having said that, Bubba's point on fitness to a certain point is fully correct in this day and age.... as is the point of the spend only getting you so far.

By drops Bubba will mean 3 - 4 ft minimun, often to flat. XC bikes these days can do this, repeatedly... without breaking. well, the good al mtn ones can... Orange 5s defo. Unlike times of old.

BUT, how many lyrca wearing fingerless mitt flat bar riding XC boys (bear with me, the sweeping generalisation will display my point more clearly) will be able to do that after 3 months riding off road on a modern *all MTN* full suss? Not many i suggest. How many BMXers after 3 months on same machine? All most likely. It's skill aquisition  - just like blouldering - that takes soo much time... cardio fitness for all mtn MTB takes you only so far...

In the old days of riding round a field and carrying your XC bike up a hill sort of race course then of course roadie type cardio ability was the deciding factor... that scene near died a death from stagnation. Have you seen the XC course at fort bill? it's nails!!

[webbo]

when i was referring to cross country.the fort william course was the one that came to mind.
i guess if you are good on a bike in any discipline and put the effort in,your skills will cross over to another discipline to a degree.

[fatkid2000]

Well once I get round to buying an MTB, just going to have to bite the bullet at some point, I'm very much looking forward to learning the dark arts of 'all mountain-biking' as it now seems to be called. Fitness wise I'm not worried, but I've got loads to learn as far as skills go. Hopefully without breaking the bike, as happened to my last MTB purchase.

The kit argument is true, I've out run many a person on a £4K road bike, and its even more amusing if they ride with a certain stuck up local road club.

[fatkid2000]

Fatdoc and Co what to you reckon to this bike? Just read a review in Singletrack which was good, if the front fork was changed. There's some other reviews around with it against the Pace
http://www.orangebikes.co.uk/2008bikes/subzero-upg.php

[Bubba]

It's been described as "uncompromisingly stiff" - I had an Orange MsIsle and whilst it was a great bike, it was too stiff to be comfortable.

In a similar vein

and this one

The Chameleon, Stiffee and Sub Zero are the main contenders for that sort of versatile all-mountain hardtail. I was originally after a Stiffee but a Chameleon came up first so I got that.

[fatdoc]

Fatdoc and Co what to you reckon to this bike? Just read a review in Singletrack which was good, if the front fork was changed. There's some other reviews around with it against the Pace
http://www.orangebikes.co.uk/2008bikes/subzero-upg.php

for your needs there are other bikes in that issue that would be better...

for my needs I've been seriously considering that Orange I have to say.... god knows why.. i doubt my back would take it TBH. I love that fork BTW, it works, it doesnt break and it's got no flex... at all. the only double crown fork i've had that is as stiff is an 888.

Good advice from Bubs... my choice would be the Stiffee for you (yes, yes..... Cove bikes = amusment on the fotum)


Just get on with it!

[fatkid2000]

I just need to go to a shop and buy something. Whatever I buy I'm sure I'll buying another one in a years time. It makes road bike buying a piece of piss.

[fatdoc]

I just need to go to a shop and buy something. Whatever I buy I'm sure I'll buying another one in a years time. It makes road bike buying a piece of piss.

If it makes you happy honey....

[clm]

This is getting too technical.  i have a pretty entry level bike - the brakes are hayes sole - they make me stop quickly.  First disks and first hydraulics i have ever had.  Are they really that shit?  Think how much progress there has been on bikes in the past 10 to 15 years.  That said my forks are bobbins - marzocchi mz111.  what is recommended for an upgrade?  they are on a cindercone.

[Falling Down]

The kit argument is true, I've out run many a person on a £4K road bike...

Was this the point that Bubbs was making or am I missing something??

[fatdoc]

problem is is that fatkid is really rather good on a road bike, in fact very good. he wants to try and purchase wisely so to keep an edge on his MTB chums.. personally I just want to be there when he learns to jump!! 

[fatkid2000]

Bike bling is a difficult area.  I've got 2 road bikes with Campag groupsets, one veloce and the other Centaur - its only one step higher in campags range but does have carbon cranks. I really can tell the difference between the 2 groupsets. I prefer the frame of the bike of the veloce as its quicker but the centeur group works better. I can see why people get bikes intended for pro use. This is why I'm dithering about my MTB purchase. I don't expect the bike to give me skill, but I know I expect my bikes to perform.

I bought mbr rider today. They were reviewing all mountain bikes. They looked at the Marin attack trail and give it an 8. Interestingly they also looked at Lapierre Spicy 516 which has 160mm of travel, which they gave a 9 to. I think this may be too much for my needs, but they also make the Zesty with 140mm. I know its French, but they must know something about bikes with 2 awesome mountain ranges to ride. I've ridden a Lapierre road bike, which obviously means nothing, just wandered what you think of these, especially as the view seems to be that Orange are over-priced.

[unclesomebody]

Right then bike guru's. I have digested your great advice, and have been trying to figure out the way to go. The whole set a budget thing was difficult, because I know I want to pay as little as possible, but I want something decent, and I know I won't lose any money if I buy wisely. In fact, a few years ago, I made a few hundred quid on a Cannondale 2000 hardtail after a summer of fun with it. I guess I'm going to spent between 500-800 but this is based on my selling a few pairs of Nike's. Yes. Shoes.    Don't ask. Anyway, I'm going to sell a few pair which should generate about £500 and the rest I'll tack on. My options in this price range seem to be;

Specialized SX
Kona Stab/Stinky/Coiler etc. I don't know where each model comes in the ladder of quality but it looks like they represent good value.
Norco A-line

And for the rest, I can't afford my dream bike.

I don't know whether or not I want 24" wheel(s). Is this a bad move? I don't want to ride around all day on this bike. I mainly want to go big and go fast. Do not mark these words, but that is the image I have in my mind.

I registered on southerndownhill.com to have a gander and there seem to be some nice bikes. I don't want to get sucked in and end up spending £1k because I really don't have the money. This is to be a bit of fun on the side to accompany the main serving of climbing! 

So which of those options above would be best? Best as in which represents best combination of performance/price/residuals/quality. Thanks!

[fatdoc]

SX

you can go big and fast on it... and just about winch it up when needed.

I'd stay 26" wheel..

the stinky and A line are real heavy rigs...


Fatkid... those frenchie bikes are very highly rated, though i've not trawled through the spec sheets etc.. one thing to consider is they are quite a fashionable brand - and as such are prone to a lot of press exposure.

[fatkid2000]

Fatdoc, if you have time have a gander at the specs on those French bikes. I think 140mm travel is enough - which is the Zesty. The shops based up in Harrogate.

http://www.boneshakersbikes.co.uk/acatalog/Lapierre.html

[Norton Sharley]

Being vaguely inclined towards the odd spot of cynicism I wouldn't believe a f***ing word the bike mags say.  And I have a bike journo mate 

Have ridden a Commencal 4.xx which was superlight and very nice up and down, but not a Lapierre.  Are you doing the servicing yourself, are there warranty conditions associated with servicing elsewhere, can you be arsed to keep going back to the original shop where you bought it, what happens if it snaps?

Lapierre are fairly new to big mtb's I think so have they really come up with a blinder on their first try or are mbr just after ad revenue?

Buy an Orange man, the best overpriced missile you'll spend your money on!

[fatdoc]

there is something in that you know....