[r-man]

2nd generation move - involving a transitional handhold or foothold that is only useful when the climber is moving. It cannot be weighted statically and its only function is to redirect or further propel the climber towards a better hold.

Have I got that right?

So anyway, 2nd gen moves - they're great...but there aren't many of them. Sadly it often seems that although a 2nd gen move might be possible, the easiest sequence usually involves something less exciting.

Is it actually easier to pull down than to bounce between holds? Or do we all just spend too much time trying to be strong and not enough trying to flow?

Is it easier to do this with feet than hands because running is more natural? Are climbers more inclined towards breaking problems into stages than creating long and flowing moves?

And does anyone remember the first level of Sonic, where if you ran at speed you could bounce across the treetops all the way to the end?

__________

And secondly, what 2nd gen moves are there out there? There are two types, I think - quick hands and quick feet, with feet being easier than hands.

Does anyone have any videos - I love watching this sort of move.

This one is good, for those that haven't seen it -

http://www.yorkshiregrit.com/video.html?id=eastby__solid_air&n=0



And here's one at Burbage South, which I thoroughly recommend -

(best to click save target...)

It's on the pointy boulder just down from the Tank (it has a big easy slab on it). No hands, leap from the low ledge across to the other side - a wierd kick-through seemed to do the trick for swinging through into balance...

[Houdini]

Your definitition seems accurate to me.

Yes, I recall the Sonic thang.

Yes, climbers do spend far too much time trying to get strong.  There are so many strong climbers who well, don't seem to get up as much as perhaps they should.  Being super strong costs energy.  I only have so much energy at any given time and it's easy to burn out by trying everything static.  Myself?  I would always climb statically but those days are gone.  Being short I can only reach so many holds.  I failed too often yet got stronger and stronger.  Since I learnt to slap hop skip and jump my bouldering has improved by factors and now I aim to be on the holds as little as possible.  To flow?  Yes, that's all I've ever wanted.  It's taken time to learn (a decade for me) to not hold on too hard and to be able to let go.  Momentum is everything.

[Nibile]

yes, momentum is everything.

i always find it again when campusing: each time i try to adjust on the rung, i fail the exercise, instead when i just pull on no matter how i gained the hold i get it done, or go much closer.

i also used to climb static when i started, but i think it was the influence of the french school, the likes of legrand.
then, one evening at home, i bumped into a tv show called Xtreme, and it featured an interview with ben moon showing bits of training and bouldering. the spped of the moves, the double dynos at the campusboard.
i couldnt sleep well that night, a new life was to begin.

i am serious.

[unclesomebody]

yes, momentum is everything.

i always find it again when campusing: each time i try to adjust on the rung, i fail the exercise, instead when i just pull on no matter how i gained the hold i get it done, or go much closer.

i also used to climb static when i started, but i think it was the influence of the french school, the likes of legrand.
then, one evening at home, i bumped into a tv show called Xtreme, and it featured an interview with ben moon showing bits of training and bouldering. the spped of the moves, the double dynos at the campusboard.
i couldnt sleep well that night, a new life was to begin.

i am serious.

pure inspiration... 

[Houdini]

Yeay!  Fuck style.  I used to be style obsessed.  Now I like like it fast and rough!

[Bonjoy]

 Well applied momentum is the height of style, making things twice as hard as they need be by going static is not.

[Blunk]

one evening at home, i bumped into a tv show called Xtreme, and it featured an interview with ben moon showing bits of training and bouldering. the spped of the moves, the double dynos at the campusboard.
i couldnt sleep well that night, a new life was to begin.

i am serious.

And that's why we like you Nibs! 

[Houdini]

I agree Lovejoy!  But you would have to see footage of me 8 years ago and climb with me tomorrow to get my meaning.

[slim]

at what point does using an intermidiate count as second gen?
ie building up momentum on start holds, slaping hand up to intermediate then going onto a further hold,
if that counts then there are loads out there

[Dr T]

I guess if you leave you hand on the intermediate after slapping then it's not 2nd gen....

[fatdoc]

a "showing my age" post:

rememebr the dynos at the old poly wall in sheff?, and the handless run accross the wall to leap into the rafters?, remember the c-y-b wall dynos?

i shunned sport climbing for years, got into it late (and had a damn good time once i got there mind), but with total lack of strength i could redpoint 8a (it was hard then) in a couple of days after a season on limestone.... bizarrely i could do no more than 5 pull ups and could in no way lock off.....  i was even weaker the year before when i did a clutch opf E6s on grit (headpointing before it was called such, God i got grief for my style then)...... the point is....  I did  have every dyno at the walls above and at minus ten Soooooo dialed. I'm pretty small, and have always bounced around a lot. Interestingly bouldering has probably slowed my climbing down if anything.

 i offer no explanation - just observation! if we knew the answer we'd all be doing something else.

Good thread.

[Paz]

It sounds great but it's just hardly ever going to give you a natural solution to a problem on rock, I woud've thought.  If it enabled us to get up things we couldn't then we'd all be doing it.  Climbers aren't exactly the least open minded group of people I know of (geologists are, right at this moment).  2nd G dynos sounds like a great idea but they're condemned to the realm of the eliminate.  If they were any good on rock, then Johnny Dawe would be doing more of his masterbation classes on rock and not at climbing walls or old churches.  I'm struggling to think of fast hands things at all, unless there's some `vaulting a horse' type dyno thing in existence, and fast feet that I know of are just so that you can use good footholds (to jump off) that would otherwise be too high to put your foot on statically or at least in more control. 

There, all that without banging my `fuck all use for trad onsighting' drum.  There's a good eliminate one not really in the guide I did once on the back of one of the RAC boulders facing the road above a puddle (I think I used someone else's pad ).

[fatdoc]

good point...

if it were the holy grail we'd all be flying about like loons. BUT, that sort of bouncing about like tigger must transfer to more usual stuff with regards to contact strength and body position -and - it's bloody great fun!!

[Resonate]

I guess moffat's left hand was a 2nd-gen move on The Ace on hard git?

[Bonjoy]

The move on The Thing at Crag X, as ably demonstrated on this video posted up by Dobbin yesterday seems to fit the description. The RH sloper is way too poor to catch and only serves to take some weight and provide direction while you slap for slot with the left.

[dobbin]

English 7b in its day! 

[Moo]

I must confess to not really understanding these seemingly differing schools fo thought towards climbing, surely you just do whatever is necesary to get up the bloody problem be it slapping or locking and pulling down.

[dobbin]

oh moo. You are but a simple beast (as am I). its not a different school of thought, just an evolution of slapping, locking and pulling down, where one moves, then whilst in movement another sub move is employed to carry the mover a little further.

[Bonjoy]

"Said the donkey to the cow", observed the baby chicken

[r-man]

The move on The Thing at Crag X, as ably demonstrated on this video posted up by Dobbin yesterday seems to fit the description. The RH sloper is way too poor to catch and only serves to take some weight and provide direction while you slap for slot with the left.

Though I think Monkey Boy said he might have been able to hold it, but it seemed easier to keep moving. Also, heard a rumour that someone (Chirs Davies?) dynoed straight to the pocket. So yet again, it's a problem (like the Joker) that doesn't need a 2nd gen solution, though in this case it sounds like it probably is the easiest way...

[dobbin]

It was CJD that jumped past the sloper. As this is the hard move on the problem, to do so is to miss out the difficulty and therefore only worth 7c+?

[Idol eyes]

Second generation X,
The definition of this is to execute a body length dyno in a terminal situation.

[Greg C]

Whilst I'm no champion of a purely static approach to climbing, I do feel there is something almost mechanically terminator-like about statically crushing into submission an established “dynamic” problem.   

[dobbin]

Uzi 9MM! (sprays bullets everywhere). the thing was always climbed statically (ish)

[r-man]

It was CJD that jumped past the sloper. As this is the hard move on the problem, to do so is to miss out the difficulty and therefore only worth 7c+?

From what I saw, it looked like the hard bit was hanging the pocket - Monkey Boy was doing the sloper move with ease, hitting pocket again and again, but coming off repeatedly. Pretty sure he thought holding the pocket would be harder from a dyno...