[Bonjoy]

As you have probably heard the BMC and Si Panton have put together a list of ten commandments for boulderers. There is a poster listing these which I guess will be put up in shops and climbing walls etc. Here it is:

 What do you think of them?
 For my part I think it's a great idea and everything is in there that should be. I hope all boulderers think about how their activity affects the crag environment and follows (if they don't already) the guidelines that it lists.
 However my one quibble is with the no. 10. "Leave vegetation in place - no gardening please." I think this goes too far. Whilst I wholeheartedly agree that gardening should be kept to a minimum and that people should think carefully about wether the level of gardening required on any given project will be justified by the quality of the end result, I don't think a blanket condemnation of gardening is right. For one thing, what counts as vegetation, algae, lichen, moss, grass or mature oak tree? All are vegetation. The obvious answer is that it should be down to an individual to make a responsible informed decision, which is I reckon what the spirit of this 'rule' ought to be.
 I imagine the reasoning behind such a categorical statement is that many boulderers are young and a bit thick and can't be trusted to know where to draw the line. Whilst this might be true, many are not. As a moderately experienced boulder myself what I do could be considered as setting an example that will be taken onboard by younger less experience souls. Now for example, if I find a fine unclimbed project and it requires the removal of a tuft of grass or a few inches of moss cover, am I to leave this problem unclimbed? If I climb it and someone else comes along and sees it has been gardened what then? I  am seen to have broken the rules and the message goes out that its ok to do so, bad example set. See my point? If the rule was more equivocal than this would not be the case.
 I think what little gardening I do is reasonable and well considered and an inextricable part of developing new problems. I see no good reason to alter what i'm doing, yet at the same time I don't want to go against the stated wishes of the climbing community and I don't want to set any bad examples :roll:
 hmmmmm.....

[Graeme]

I guess it comes down to common sense really, what you need to look at though is what sort of vegetation am I removing, rarity of vegetation, quality of line, that sort of thing.

[Bonjoy]

My point exactly. Why not say: "Don't garden where it isn't necessary. Think carefully before removing vege from a new problem - will the problem justify the damage done?" rather than "Leave vegetation in place - no gardening please"

[SA Chris]

Like I said on ukc, vegetation removal has always taken place, otherwise our crags and boulers would still resemble vertical gardens. I think common sense prevails in most instances, although a statement like " no more vegetation removal than necessary" is a bit ambiguous.

Otherwise I agree wholeheartedly with the list, and think it is a great idea.

[Graeme]

I think the problem you might be getting are a lot of young kids coming not knowing whats what and just gardening for the kudos of the new problem, everyone's got to learn, I think a lot of people feel it's easier to have a blanket ban than to say thats ok that isn't, rather than to educate people or to encourage them to have a think about what they might be doing.

[dave]

maybe the last one should be replaced with summert like "thou shalt not bring car keys to bear upon the rock".

Those posters are a good idea but i don't feel they will make any difference to half the problem regarding chipping/wirebrushing/resin, that problem being the arrogant few who think that they are special and the rules don't apply to them, or just don't give a fuck about anyone else.

[AndyR]

Ho hum - that's why I climb and boulder - I love being told exactly what I can and can't do.
I think we need more rules - ten just isn't enough.

[Obi-Wan is lost...]

Generally I think these are quite a good idea. I wouldn't get hung up too much on the wording of any one of them. They are clearly aimed at people new to the sport and hopefully won't become signs at the bottom of every approach path. After all these are 'commandments' not rules or laws, we break plenty of the other 'commandments' :wink: so we can happily ignore these too if we want to.

However for someone new to the sport they are a reasonable set of guidelines, but if anyone from the BMC is interested, I wouldn't bother with posters that most will not read, I would talk to local shops and try and get them to give a small  flyer version out with new mats/chalkbags/boots/guides/chalk etc. That way your much more likely to get newbies to read it.

[al]

what a wierd poster - who's it aimed at?

[Pantontino]

Obi-Wan 's post summarises most of my thoughts on the subject. Of course this poster is not directed at experienced boulderers - you lot should know what is or isn't wise/acceptable behaviour. If you don't by now, then you never will. The key point is how we behave at the crag, and how this could negatively influence the behaviour of 'newbies'. For example, it seems pretty obvious to me the effect of a well known/high profile climber walking around with a wire brush in their hand/clipped to their harness.

Bonjoy - your post already makes all the points that I could make in response. I trust you to act sensibly, but I do not trust all climbers to do so.

Al the poster is not 'wierd' - it is a response to how certain crags, particularly in the Pennines, are getting fucked up, but also with an eye to how climbing culture is percieved by agencies such as the CA/CCW/National Park authorities etc. If you have a better suggestion of how we put our house in order, I'm all ears.

Andy R - we've been over this many times, and clearly we don't see eye to eye on this issue. Perhaps to move things on a bit it would be good to hear how you would go about addressing the negative impact that we climbers cause to the crag environment and these lumps of rock that we play upon.

Having helped to promote bouldering (via the magazines and my guidebook, website etc) I do feel perhaps a greater degree of responsibility than others who have kept their hands cleaner (That said, nobody's hands are totally clean.). But even if I wasn't involved in climbing media, I would still support something like this, because I haven't heard a serious alternative yet. I don't think we have got any choice, but to be pro-active.

[bobble_maun]

:roll:   one of these sprung up out side lancaster uni wall so i read it , im new to the sport as well and have already taken on most of the things listed on board, not that i go round chipping, gardening etc. i can see the point of most of it, but lets face it most ADULTS and i use this term very loosely should already be doing most of them.  its common sense lets keep our country side for everyone. no one wants to see crap all over and  trampled plants but i think if care is taken every one can enjoy the sport. most of the place i boulder have no plants underneth any way. as far as chipping,resin and wire brushing  isn't this cheating and being a complete tosser and bollocksing it up for everyone else, way i see it if it damages the environment irrepairably then dont do it. it will not test your self if you gotta cheat, train harder if you cant do it, me and my kids do and we are getting better all the time.

[al]

it is wierd because it just seems like another example of the BMC dabbling in an issue of the sport they don't understand, then indirectly trying to control it, without doing anything practical (see: climbing walls, competitions, sport climbing to name three)
how about funding actual hold/chipping repair, gravel and wood chip 'drops', crag clean up days, path control etc if they really want to impact some of these issues on the ground?

[Duma]

how about funding actual hold/chipping repair, gravel and wood chip 'drops', crag clean up days, path control etc if they really want to impact some of these issues on the ground?

fair enough, and good ideas, but they are all effectively dealing with symptoms rather than causes, which is what this poster is trying to do. I also don't think that the BMC don't have any understanding of bouldering - Panton was involved in this initiative and he certainly has some idea what it's all about. Re the flyer idea - this sounds like a really good way to get the message across - is the cost prohibitive or could it be a practical suggestion?

[Pantontino]

Al, in one sense you are right. A poster without any back up of practical work at the crags is not enough, but to be fair to the BMC, they have been getting involved in the very things you mention. For example, I've been discussing erosion control measures in N Wales with BMC officer, Guy Keating; see also the John Horscroft thread below for Peak based developments.

[al]

if thats the case then i stand corrected, si, and good for the BMC - just think its a complicated issue and there is a lot of hipocracy spoken by climbers when it comes to the enviroment?

[andy_e]

Living in lancashire, it is nearly impossible to go to a quarry without having to rip out some heather or bracken anyway, especiallly when i go to new quarries and stuff, so it is a bit silly. And anyway, quarries are incipient therefore the plants in them don't matter.

[Bonjoy]

Living in lancashire, it is nearly impossible to go to a quarry without having to rip out some heather or bracken anyway, especiallly when i go to new quarries and stuff, so it is a bit silly. And anyway, quarries are incipient therefore the plants in them don't matter.

incipient
     adj : only partly in existence

 :?:  :wink:

[a dense loner]

he's not that far wrong tho is he :wink:

[SA Chris]

Surely the word insipid is what you are looking for;

"Lacking flavor or zest; not tasty.
Lacking qualities that excite, stimulate, or interest; dull."

[andy_e]

no incipient also means out of place, usage:
"The big metal wind turbine was incipient on the moorlands"

[andy_e]

ok it appears you were right, i was wrong. in that case,

And anyway, the quarries shouldn't be there therefore the plants in them don't matter.

[Mr.Burns]

The 11th commandment: BMC area representatives shall not get crags banned without good reason (this includes ripping ivy off walls you are not meant to be on anyway).

[AndyR]

Andy R - we've been over this many times, and clearly we don't see eye to eye on this issue. Perhaps to move things on a bit it would be good to hear how you would go about addressing the negative impact that we climbers cause to the crag environment and these lumps of rock that we play upon.

I guess I'm just completely allergic to the concept of 'rules' in climbing. I'm actually very sensitive to the concept of impact that we as climbers cause (I do work as an environmental consultant after all), but it's probably fair to say that I don't view the rock with such fervent reverence as many people on this board - it seems to be the taken line that the rock is holy, and should not be impacted at all.

My take on this is that any impact should be minimised as much as possible, but that, when 'creating' new problems on boulders that haven't been climbed on before, some impact is inevitable, and in my view, necessary to make decent boulder problems - thus, I think some pragmatic 'comfortising' (to use Mick R's term) is sometimes a good thing, in order to make better problems, and obviously, there are various shades of grey involved in this practise.

The treatment of existing problems is of course different, and I think the 'rules' do a decent job in highlighting some practises that shouldn't be used in popular areas - however, I would prefer to see them discussed more in terms of reducing impact, rather than a prescriptive list of actions that one must not do - most climbers are relatively switched on, why not engage them in the discussion, rather than telling them what they can't do?

What I do find much more alarming is the impact that climbers cause to the ground getting to and from boulders - the creation of networks of paths, erosion of soil etc etc, and I'm as guilty of this as the next man - I would definitely like to see this addressed.

[erm, sam]

I thought it was interesting that in your post you refer to climbers as "relatively switched on".
You then go on to describe how a problem that you are guilty of contributing (path erosion) alarms you, and that you would like the problem to be addressed.
Maybe it could be addressed if enlightened individuals (eg Enviro consultants) set an example themselves, and eductated others in a low key way about the problem.
How can it be addressed if said individual sees themselves as part of the problem and is presumably unable to rectify their behavior?
Other than this I see no alternative to "Rules" and codes of conduct being drawn up by governing bodies and comunicated to users.
How else can it be done?
I think loads of climbers are selfish prats who would benefit from a bit of gentle guidence. After all it is only a poster.

[AndyR]

I thought it was interesting that in your post you refer to climbers as "relatively switched on".
You then go on to describe how a problem that you are guilty of contributing (path erosion) alarms you, and that you would like the problem to be addressed.
Maybe it could be addressed if enlightened individuals (eg Enviro consultants) set an example themselves, and eductated others in a low key way about the problem.
How can it be addressed if said individual sees themselves as part of the problem and is presumably unable to rectify their behavior?
Other than this I see no alternative to "Rules" and codes of conduct being drawn up by governing bodies and comunicated to users.
How else can it be done?
I think loads of climbers are selfish prats who would benefit from a bit of gentle guidence. After all it is only a poster.

I take your point - I think we're only just waking up to the problems that we do cause - I would be happy to take part in 'crag-healing' days that involved footpath work and litter picking.

I agree that we're all selfish prats to a greater or lesser extent - I'd still rather see the issues being discussed in terms of what our impacts are and how we can help to lessen them, rather than a series of rules, but I accept that maybe that's just my personal reaction to being presented with rules.

And I do think that climbers are 'relatively switched on' compared to the sun-reading populace as a whole.  At least this conversation is taking place.