[El Mocho]

Thought I would start a separate thread as the conversation around this was dragging the other off topic.

I didn’t manage to get out with James today to sort the hold as I had to do an emergency vet trip (dog ok) but he’s sent me some pics and info.

Also a bit of info about all the dif finish points etc

Finish 1: James + Sam’s finish on the undercut flake where things turn less steep.
Finish 2: Tim’s finish on the next sidepull/undercut 6ft higher
High finish: Big jug block 8ft? higher.

In climbing terms the high finish is the most logical, a big double handed jug. It is pretty high and requires multiple pads… Tim’s finish 2 is maybe a bit obsolete now as it’s only a marginally better hold than finish 1. Finish 1 is probably the most popular but does feel a little strange (as you can likely see from some of the vids) as it’s no jug and more a quick match and drop off.

There are various versions of the problem as the landing/finishes developed but I would say the main ones are:

Leviathan (crouch start to finish 1)
Leviathan sds (sit start to finish 1)
Big Leviathan extended (sds to high finish. Should really just be called Big Leviathan now)

But people can climb whatever they want/have enough pads for/are brave/good enough for.

The hold…
I’ve spoken to James a little bit more in person/via whatsapp but this is still just my take on what he said/did.

When James and Sam were trying the problem they pulled off a hold, this was an pretty good 3/4 finger edge but of slightly friable rock. James glued it back on but it came off again so second try he put a lot more supporting resin around the hold, and maybe re built it back to original size as some had crumbled (I think)

This left a rather unsightly hold which looked and felt 100% resin. It also didn’t look like a hold would have formed in this way/position naturally. The little flake leading down to it was much smaller and the resin hold kinda stuck out and as the hold had been surrounded by so much resin no rock was visible.

I went back last weekend as my friend had come over from the Peak to try it and I had some pads stashed there to pick up. When we arrived we spotted the hold was missing. It looked like someone had knocked it off with a hammer or rock. What was left was a hold (of rock, not resin) which was slightly crumbly and sharp but could be used (I reclimbed Leviathan at around 8A). There were still bits of resin around the hold and on the rock nearby. The hold did stick out more than the nearby flake although it was def smaller than the resin hold had been.

When James went back today he removed all the rest of the resin and actually the bit of rock that had been there – this was some of the original hold that had been glued back on ie when the unknown person tried to remove the hold/resin they had actually left some of the reglued hold (and obv resin) in place. He’s now left it in a completely natural state as it was just after he first pulled the hold off. It’s left a 2 finger, slightly backhand edge. James says he reclimbed Leviathan at ‘soft 8A’. Considering the hold looks worse than what was left of it on Sunday I would guess 8A but not soft! He does say the hold is quite nice.

This obv now changes the difficulty of all the problems, whether by a full grade or not I’m not sure.
Big Leviathan (sans resin) doesn’t really exist anymore, could still be climbed as an eliminate not using that hold for hands or feet but seems a bit silly now.

Ethically I’m not really sure where I stand on it all. I wasn’t a fan of the resin hold but I’m not really sure that the current solution has been that great, especially if James hadn’t gone along and sorted it out. Anyway I’ll just drop Northen Yob a few whatsapps and get him to stir for me…

I’ve not always agreed with some of the things James has done but in this instance he has acknowledge he made a mistake, has expressed concern that his actions may have jeopardised some great problems and then went and (by the look of the pics) did a good job sorting it back to a natural state.

[northern yob]

El Mocho has been pecking me on what’s app…. I’m done being manipulated by an evil genius!! So I won’t be addressing any of his major gripes(there are lots)

Well what a fuck show this has turned out to be…. Whoever removed the hold is prick(and possibly an evil genius 🤔) if you are gonna do shit like this please own it..

Fair do’s to james for stepping in and sorting it! It does sound as though it was right to give him the benefit of the doubt (seems there was a hold in there somewhere) it does highlight to me that you should never do stuff like this in the first place, there’s usually a way round hold loss, and it just muddy the waters if it’s sometimes acceptable sometimes not. For me the point of it all is interacting with our natural environment and that doesn’t include rebuilt holds.
I’m slightly amused that El Mocho’s finest bouldering achievement barely lasted a month. I’m also slightly gutted for him! Hopefully he will get down there and beat the queue of strong people to reclimb the big line.

What’s with the pad stash El Mocho…. Fucking convenience!!next thing you’ll be clearing landings with feather and wedges!! Just don’t ever bring all these bad habits your picking up in wales back north.

[Fiend]

Big Leviathan (sans resin) doesn’t really exist anymore, could still be climbed as an eliminate not using that hold for hands or feet but seems a bit silly now.

I’m slightly amused that El Mocho’s finest bouldering achievement barely lasted a month. I’m also slightly gutted for him! Hopefully he will get down there and beat the queue of strong people to reclimb the big line.

There was some heated discussion on the NWB Costal Crags Feedback group last night, about the current validity of the various incarnations of this problem, and the general conclusion was:

This definitely ranks as one of the most unhinged, logic free convos we have had on here. C'mon lads step away from the pipe, please!

Which I think is pretty informative.

[teestub]

There was some heated discussion on the NWB Costal Crags Feedback group last night, about the current validity of the various incarnations of this problem, and the general conclusion was:

Not only will the coastal volume be bloated with 8,000 Robbins barnacle and seaweed Anglesey FA’s, now there will be 2 pages on the Tale of the Leviathan!

[Fiend]

Not only will the coastal volume be bloated with 8,000 Robbins barnacle and seaweed Anglesey FA’s,
...

I can neither confirm nor deny confirm that  But I have every faith in the guidebook boss.

[Bonjoy]

… it does highlight to me that you should never do stuff like this in the first place, there’s usually a way round hold loss, and it just muddy the waters if it’s sometimes acceptable sometimes not. For me the point of it all is interacting with our natural environment and that doesn’t include rebuilt holds.

Absolutist positions are fine in theory but are never as sensible or clear cut when applied to the real world. There is rarely clear water to get muddied in the first place at venues where glue ends up getting used on holds.
For instance:
- Does you position mean rock stabilisation is not acceptable? This as a preventative measure on sandstone and grit does a lot to reduce the damage done to crags by climbers, and therefore helps maintain access and benefits other non climbing crag users who don't have to suffer the visible damage done.
- Does this mean chipped holds cannot be filled in? What if this is a small pocket chipped to make it bigger, surely this counts as rebuilding a hold.
- What about chossy sport rock? An embargo on gluing would simple mean people cleaned more aggressively so that anything which will break off (that they might otherwise have stabilised with glue) is removed prior to the ascent. Or is cleaning also unacceptable? In which case how does this work at say Gordale/Cornice where tourists are walking beneath people climbing and holds ripping off is an issue of safety, which then is an issue of access.
- What about when a hold ripping off leaves an ugly scar and a fix is simple, nearly invisible and effectively reverses what is from a non climber perspective vandalism?
- Is it really taking the moral high ground for our generation to embargo repair and stabilisation, then go round breaking climbs and leaving them in a grim or unclimbable condition for future generations? Preserving no record of the original state in the process in case people have a change of heart down the line.

Much of this comes down to a question of ethics versus sustainability. In some instances this is a question of narrow climbers' concerns versus the concerns of other non-climbing crag users.

Don't get me wrong, the rebuild here sounds like it was probably a step or two too far (hard to be sure though as nobody has posted any pictures of the hold and its surrounds in its various states). Building holds where none existed before is no better than chipping. Using the existence of a small feature to justify 'rebuilding' a bigger one is little better. However, it sounds like making this right in itself involved 'rebuilding a hold' to some extent, which speaks to my point about glue often being considered when the waters are already muddied by factors outside the gluers control. I just don't think thing tend to be made better in something as massively complicated as climbing by the application of strict and simple rules which ignore all the confounding factors. Annoyingly wordy, vague, complicated and open to disagreements of opinion as it is, I think most things of this nature in climbing are best addressed by looking at all the factors in play for the specific individual instance in question. Of course there should be some guiding principles to direct this decision making, but we should not be forced to knowingly make poor decisions in order to protect rigid principles.

[northern yob]

For me (everyone’s limits are different) hold stabilisation when making a first ascent is ok(this alone leaves all kind of possibilities for the Fa. It’s super grey)After that leave it…. If it breaks leave it, if it crumbles leave it. Ultimately it’s all very grey.

For me the ace wouldn’t have been fixed(might have been reclimbed) same with Mecca. As usual I’m a long way from the norm…. No need to worry everyone keep slapping the glue on.

I agree the absolutist position is bollox. Of course stabilisation can be acceptable on sandstone and grit. Of course chipped holds can be filled. And yes a pocket chipped bigger could be returned to something like its original state. When something breaks leave it…. It will usually get reclimbed. If it leaves an ugly scar leave it, time will deal with it.

It’s no less the moral high ground us breaking things than it is trying to freeze climbs at a point in time…. Nearly everything is still climbable, is it morally ok to choose what the future generations get to climb?? Ultimately it’s all bollox, all arbitrary!

Some common sense would be good, but that’s harder when ego gets involved. I’m definitely of the view less is more…. You aren’t shy of the glue or a rebuild, you are fairly good at applying common sense and removing ego.

There’s no right or wrong just grey… I would just prefer if people did less and thought about it more!

For all the fuck ups like this there are loads of good examples. It’s all very personal.

[andy moles]

There was some heated discussion on the NWB Costal Crags Feedback group last night, about the current validity of the various incarnations of this problem

Is Leviathan the bouldering Tormented Ejaculation to Big Leviathan's Indian Face? 

[Fiend]

If someone does an acrylic painting where the resin hold used to be...

[stone]

I want to express my appreciation for many many great days I've spent on Peak sport routes that are basically glued together rubble. 

They have the sort of cool, mind-bending, moves and variety of beta options that natural rock throws up. As such they seem largely "route-set" by geology rather than by the route developer. To me that is what matters for rock that wouldn't really function for climbing if left as rubble.

[Bonjoy]

For me (everyone’s limits are different) hold stabilisation when making a first ascent is ok(this alone leaves all kind of possibilities for the Fa. It’s super grey)After that leave it…. If it breaks leave it, if it crumbles leave it. Ultimately it’s all very grey.

For me the ace wouldn’t have been fixed(might have been reclimbed) same with Mecca. As usual I’m a long way from the norm…. No need to worry everyone keep slapping the glue on.

I agree the absolutist position is bollox. Of course stabilisation can be acceptable on sandstone and grit. Of course chipped holds can be filled. And yes a pocket chipped bigger could be returned to something like its original state. When something breaks leave it…. It will usually get reclimbed. If it leaves an ugly scar leave it, time will deal with it.

It’s no less the moral high ground us breaking things than it is trying to freeze climbs at a point in time…. Nearly everything is still climbable, is it morally ok to choose what the future generations get to climb?? Ultimately it’s all bollox, all arbitrary!

Some common sense would be good, but that’s harder when ego gets involved. I’m definitely of the view less is more…. You aren’t shy of the glue or a rebuild, you are fairly good at applying common sense and removing ego.

There’s no right or wrong just grey… I would just prefer if people did less and thought about it more!

For all the fuck ups like this there are loads of good examples. It’s all very personal.

I also voted for Mecca to have the hold left off when there was a UKB poll/discussion at the time. I also thought effort should have been made to re-climb the Joker/Ace before resorting to repair (the Careless Talk podcast said I'd glued the Joker hold back on, but it was actually James Garland Taylor). Not that I think either repair should now be deconstructed, KC's work on Mecca in particular is a masterpiece and has historical value as the best repair job in the peak.
I think we essentially agree. Arguments over where the line is drawn are a good sign people still care I guess.

[northern yob]

Hopefully we aren’t ever arguing on here.... heated discussions at worst🤣!

I think it’s good to get opinions out there, if you don’t voice it, it’s pretty much worthless having it. It’s also pretty important to remember it’s only an opinion, everyone’s entitled to one, and no one’s carry’s more weight than anybody else’s!

I love all the ethics shit because there is no right or wrong. Agreed re caring! It would be more worrying to me if there was no discussion about shit like this.

[Pantontino]

I’m slightly amused that El Mocho’s finest bouldering achievement barely lasted a month. I’m also slightly gutted for him! Hopefully he will get down there and beat the queue of strong people to reclimb the big line.

This is a joke, right? Ben has already climbed the line, albeit with a hard/unnecessary sequence. The FA is already in the bag.

[Pantontino]

There was some heated discussion on the NWB Costal Crags Feedback group last night, about the current validity of the various incarnations of this problem, and the general conclusion was:

Not only will the coastal volume be bloated with 8,000 Robbins barnacle and seaweed Anglesey FA’s, now there will be 2 pages on the Tale of the Leviathan!

At least spell his name right if you're going to slag him off. And stop being so snarky and whiney, it's tedious.

[Pantontino]

Not only will the coastal volume be bloated with 8,000 Robbins barnacle and seaweed Anglesey FA’s,
...

I can neither confirm nor deny confirm that  But I have every faith in the guidebook boss.

Flattery will get you everywhere my friend!

[Pantontino]

Agree with what Bonjoy said about hard and fast rules - they're just not that helpful. Sometimes developers make a wrong step, but the vast majority of the time they get it right.

[yetix]

I’m slightly amused that El Mocho’s finest bouldering achievement barely lasted a month. I’m also slightly gutted for him! Hopefully he will get down there and beat the queue of strong people to reclimb the big line.

This is a joke, right? Ben has already climbed the line, albeit with a hard/unnecessary sequence. The FA is already in the bag.

The eliminate is pointless now, the hold was eliminated because people thought it was only a resin hold without anything under, there was something underneath which now defeats the purpose of the eliminate...

A Ferrino sans pocket esc 8C doesn't need to exist now sure, especially with what sounds like a complete and sans resin line existing now. The history can be written up for sure, but to me the 8C doesn't exist anymore. Not sure on others thoughts.

[Pantontino]

I’m slightly amused that El Mocho’s finest bouldering achievement barely lasted a month. I’m also slightly gutted for him! Hopefully he will get down there and beat the queue of strong people to reclimb the big line.

This is a joke, right? Ben has already climbed the line, albeit with a hard/unnecessary sequence. The FA is already in the bag.

The eliminate is pointless now, the hold was eliminated because people thought it was only a resin hold without anything under, there was something underneath which now defeats the purpose of the eliminate...

A Ferrino sans pocket esc 8C doesn't need to exist now sure, especially with what sounds like a complete and sans resin line existing now. The history can be written up for sure, but to me the 8C doesn't exist anymore. Not sure on others thoughts.

Obviously the 8C sans resin eliminate doesn't exist anymore, but Ben doesn't need to re-climb anything. He's already climbed the line, which will likely be 8B+ now.

[yetix]

Ah okay I agree with that, think I have misunderstood your comment in that case.

[El Mocho]

I’m slightly amused that El Mocho’s finest bouldering achievement barely lasted a month. I’m also slightly gutted for him! Hopefully he will get down there and beat the queue of strong people to reclimb the big line.

This is a joke, right? Ben has already climbed the line, albeit with a hard/unnecessary sequence. The FA is already in the bag.

The eliminate is pointless now, the hold was eliminated because people thought it was only a resin hold without anything under, there was something underneath which now defeats the purpose of the eliminate...

A Ferrino sans pocket esc 8C doesn't need to exist now sure, especially with what sounds like a complete and sans resin line existing now. The history can be written up for sure, but to me the 8C doesn't exist anymore. Not sure on others thoughts.

Obviously the 8C sans resin eliminate doesn't exist anymore, but Ben doesn't need to re-climb anything. He's already climbed the line, which will likely be 8B+ now.

Just by what is now a bad sequence 😂

I didn't climb the eliminate as I thought the hold was a fake hold where nothing had been before but because I thought it was ugly, unpleasant and would be possible without. It was a way of making a little statement that maybe rather than making a hold which needs to be so much resin, always taking glueing something back on as the first option it might be possible and just as good to climb without it. I.e. many of the points people have made on this and the other thread. But I didn't want to go and knock off the hold, and I, maybe naively, didn't think my ascent would result in that.

I also thought it would be a great challenge for me and I enjoyed climbing there and it resulted in 1 of the bits of climbing I'm most proud of (from a personal performance perspective, both in terms of the absolute difficulty and how I performed on the day - an ascent where I climbed 100% perfectly for me but also fought really hard)

I do agree (see part way down my original post) that the non resin version is now pointless, at most a note in the history.

I might say some nice things about Remus in the hope that he keeps me in his list at 8C... Still got an ego... Only chance of the grade etc

[spidermonkey09]

I might say some nice things about Remus in the hope that he keeps me in his list at 8C... Still got an ego... Only chance of the grade etc

Also now considerably less likely to be repeated with your sequence so unlikely to get downgraded   

[northern yob]

Agreed he’s climbed the line, albeit by a whack sequence….. quite the challenge to repeat and should defo be recorded so that anyone strong enough and bored enough could have a go…. It would be quite fitting if it got a repeat.

Technically he’s climbed the line, and whilst I was kinda joking I kinda wasn’t… I’m sure it’s left a fairly shit taste, it’s not about the line so much as a mark in the sand that others can test themselves against. And bens ego(as small as it is) has been robbed of that.

[teestub]

At least spell his name right if you're going to slag him off. And stop being so snarky and whiney, it's tedious.

Apologies to Dr Peter Robins PhD! And that wasn’t slagging off, it was some attemptedly amusing exaggeration.

[Bradders]

I reckon the eliminate "exists" just as much as any eliminate exists and should absolutely be recorded. I love the idea of it as a cautionary tale, even now the resin hold is gone.

[monkoffunk]

My unnecessary two cents in an arbitrary contrived field of ethics: The 8C wouldn’t ‘count’ now for whatever it’s worth if someone repeated it. It did ‘count’ at the time of the FA because there was a ‘legitimate’ reason to climb it at that point.

Probably good that the entire thing could just be one single 8B+ now (and as per any bit of rock people can still do what they want to within the bounds of common decency).

(Sorry for all the ‘s)