[mark20]

Have I missed any? It’s not really a hybrid crag is it, at least not the central section?

On the right wing, the sport route 'If Dill Was Here' compromises 'Memo To Sally' as needs de-gearing
https://www.ukclimbing.com/logbook/crags/high_tor_derbyshire-119/memo_to_sally-15617
I've been meaning to get round to it after work but haven't had a chance yet

[abarro81]

Hasn't there been a bolt belay at the top of original route for 15+ years or am I misremembering? When I did the things in that face I thought I remember abbing off from that ledge to clean kit, but maybe I'm misremembering...

[shark]

Hasn't there been a bolt belay at the top of original route for 15+ years or am I misremembering? When I did the things in that face I thought I remember abbing off from that ledge to clean kit, but maybe I'm misremembering...

Longer. It used to have a stake you could ab or lower off when I first did it in 1984. This broke or disappeared and Seb placed the first belay bolts some time in the late 1980’s to replace the stake.

[shark]

Re more bolted belays at High Tor that is something that people might have to get their head around at some point in the future. The belay trees are ashes that had been marked for removal 2 years ago by the council and have always been problematic as potential trip hazards for tourists - belay stakes even more so.

[spidermonkey09]

 NY; an abseil station is an eminently sensible way of getting back to the base of the crag. It reduces erosion (especially in the mulchy woodland areas you have to go through to descend from the top of High Tor) and is just miles more efficient. Just don't see why you'd want to make trad climbing so much harder for people to go and do, especially if you want to preserve it and encourage people to do it (as I do as well!) People like climbing, not walking down slippery mud in their rock boots.

Re the Or belay, there was certainly one there in the period 2011-15 when I was climbing at High Tor a fair bit.

[Tony]

Re more bolted belays at High Tor that is something that people might have to get their head around at some point in the future. The belay trees are ashes that had been marked for removal 2 years ago by the council and have always been problematic as potential trip hazards for tourists - belay stakes even more so.

Or maybe we just keep it as a trad crag? And the numbers don't get too big? And climbers keep a low profile rather than bringing a Hilti to the crag?

Also, just what is so hard about walking downhill and back round? Isn't that what happens at most trad crags?

[spidermonkey09]

I suppose tongue in cheek a bit NY, whether it makes you despair or not is kind of beside the point, no? If that's what is generally accepted by the majority as a good thing for climbing, as it changes and develops, then that's what should happen.

[shark]

Or maybe we just keep it as a trad crag? And the numbers don't get too big? And climbers keep a low profile rather than bringing a Hilti to the crag?

Also, just what is so hard about walking downhill and back round? Isn't that what happens at most trad crags?

What do you propose as belays when the trees go? I don’t want to see bolt belays at the top of Darius etc but it might prove to be the least worst option. It’s a discussion for the future when they do go but thought worth flagging up now and is the sort of thing that Jon will have to deal with between climbers and Derbyshire Dales District Council.

The trip hazard issue is mentioned in the guidebook and I’ve done some things at the top of Flaky Wall thar enables climbers to avoid causing that there but still involves belaying to a he  healthy looking ash.

The belay at the top of Darius for example could be constructed in the finishing corner (provided you have any gear left!) but most wouldn’t be happy with its safety and without the belay tree most would likely run a pulled up rope even further to the fence which I suspect DDDC would not be happy about.

From my POV the existence of some bolts and belay stations does not negate a crag being a trad crag. I’ve no problem with walking back round per se but will ab back down if it is quicker and easier.

As for numbers getting too big in my opinion the number of trad climbers on Peak lime could do with increasing to keep the routes from returning to nature. The numbers have greatly declined since the 80’s and whole buttresses are pretty much unclimbable due to vegetation - I gather this is even more marked in the Lakes.

In general reducing unnecessary faff and contrivance is going help encourage traffic. That’s a general point. I didn’t see the situ ropes running up the back side of Ilam Rock but that sounded a step too far in faff and inconvenience reduction.

Somewhere in between as an example I thought about recently is that you could run a knotted rope up to the belay bolt on Bastille (which needs replacing unless you think the wire beneath is good enough) as the direct climb up to it is loose and tricky in places especially if carrying a rucsac and the traditional approach from the side under Supersonic is currently blocked by bushes. I’d be in favour of that and happy to do that rather than cut the bushes down. What would your view be on that? It’s not cut and dried

[northern yob]

I suppose tongue in cheek a bit NY, whether it makes you despair or not is kind of beside the point, no? If that's what is generally accepted by the majority as a good thing for climbing, as it changes and develops, then that's what should happen.

Also tongue in cheek let’s dilute everything til it’s bland mush, all people want is convenience….. the majority wanted brexit and 14yrs of Tory government!

I get what you are saying and I know you get what I’m saying…..Some things are made better by not being convenient, sometimes there’s more value to things which aren’t easy!

I’m very aware of the direction of travel, ultimately it will happen, but trying to preserve something special isn’t without value or not worth the effort…. Look at Czech climbing, it’s not convenient or easy and it’s probably not what the masses want. There’s plenty of sport climbing there too,  my point is that some things should be preserved in some places. This is High Tor…..

[El Mocho]

Between Bastille and Big Cigar there are what, four bolts on the whole main face? Affecting three routes.

There are also 2 new and 1 old bolt on 'My New Hat' The old bolt could well be an aid one, and maybe shared with Bastille (it's at the far left end of the trav before the big flake) The first 2 I don't know the history of - it could well have been an aid line just left of Bastille, or they could have been added for free climbing, I've not watched Sharks vid (tour's on innit) so I don't know if he mentions those but seeing you didn't I'm maybe assuming he didn't/you missed it.

NY; an abseil station is an eminently sensible way of getting back to the base of the crag. It reduces erosion (especially in the mulchy woodland areas you have to go through to descend from the top of High Tor) and is just miles more efficient. Just don't see why you'd want to make trad climbing so much harder for people to go and do, especially if you want to preserve it and encourage people to do it (as I do as well!) People like climbing, not walking down slippery mud in their rock boots.

I think there are arguments for bolted belays at High Tor but the above are not them (erosion could be in some cases but I don't think massively relevant here). I feel convenience is a terrible argument for additional bolts on a trad crag. I love alpine climbing, there is a bunch of non climbing hassle involved in it and guess what? that is part of what makes it great. Sure if there is an abb station at the top of a trad crag I will often use it, in the same way I'm not gonna walk an extra 3hrs into an alpine route if a road goes higher. I don't love walking down from a crag top in rock boots but I do love what that means. It's part of trad climbing.

[spidermonkey09]

I don't disagree with that at all El Mocho, I just think that attitudes are changing and climbing is changing. I don't want trad to become irrelevant and I think bolted abseil stations, making things a bit more convenient and less faffy, will help. Appreciate everyone here cares about trad climbing, just don't think things can stay the same as they always were.

I look at somewhere like Arapiles where trad is alive and kicking, facilitated in part by bolted abseil stations so people don't have to walk round every time they do a route (good weather obviously helps as well!). People do more pitches, more good pitches, they get the trad bug and they stick at it. Just my view though obvs.

[Hacker]

It's a few years since i did Darius but if my memory is correct there was a bommer thread and a cam placements close to or next to the bolt so it wasn't reliant on it. Anyone else remember more?

Personally I'd rather the two main abseil points of the Castellan tree and above Original route stayed, it's an outcrop crag next to a noisy road and my experience is not enhanced by walking down and it doesn't really detract either. Personally I'd rather do another route as have many others over the years. I have topped out above Original route for completeness and it was pretty shit IIRC.

IIRC the closest bolts came to spoiling my experience on high tor was doing the traverse on M1 where the proximity of the bolts below on another of Simon's routes Wil E. Coyote was distracting as I had a nightmare with the rock and gear on the route and I was temped to drop down and escape from the bolt. In the end I pulled it together and finally made the easier upper crack

[Paul B]

It's a few years since i did Darius but if my memory is correct there was a bommer thread and a cam placements close to or next to the bolt so it wasn't reliant on it. Anyone else remember more?

Yes, there's a thread certainly. JB is alluding to a tricam placement as he loves them. I'm pretty sure I used a nut turned through 90 degrees although last time I climbed Darius was the evening after my Viva and I'd already celebrated in the pub a few hours earlier (a bad decision in retrospect). I'm pretty sure JB was walking out as I was walking in? All of this was covered in some detail previously when people wanted to replace the Darius bolt (and others at the crag) with 12mm 'modern' equipment. It was opposed, including by me.

[moose]

Off topic, but how long has Darius had a bolt? I did it in 2006 and have a distinct memory of a scary 2-stage ab to retrieve my gear (as I did it on a single rope and my partner refuse to second it - the rope drag was tremendous - it felt like I was towing an elephant towards the finish!).  I remember having to trust a faded thread runner at mid-height and being terrified that any sideways movement to retrieve gear while lowering would saw through it.  Now I'm wondering if I missed a bolt and all that trauma was needless!

[csl]

Off topic, but how long has Darius had a bolt?

The current bolt has been there since 1978

https://www.ukclimbing.com/forums/rock_talk/darius_at_high_tor-718121?v=1#x9175205

[csl]

I appreciate Simon wasn’t aware of the line of Fantasia at the time of drilling which is totally fair.

Really? I differ here, and this is the nub of it for me. The idea that you go to High Tor to install the closest thing to a sport route on the main face - both a lot of work and a serious ethical decision - and you didn’t even bother to have the briefest flick through the guidebook first?

I have to say, I'm also surprised at the responses that it's fair enough to place a bolt which interferes with a trad route because the bolter wasn't aware - assuming of course the trad route was featured in a guide book with the line drawn correctly at the time of bolting.

Surely the onus needs to be on the bolter to verify (check the guide, swing around on the ab rope and figure out the likely sequence of the other line) that they are not interfering before the bolts go in.

[Fiend]

Aren't a lot of responses that it's fair to unilaterally remove THAT particular single bolt as Shark buggered up there

[shark]

Surely the onus needs to be on the bolter to verify (check the guide, swing around on the ab rope and figure out the likely sequence of the other line) that they are not interfering before the bolts go in.

You are absolutely correct.

What can I say except that I’m a muppet. I was the lead writer for the High Tor section of the Peak Limestone South guide so should have known. I can assure you I was obsessively focussed on the vertical routes ensuring the bolts didn’t interfere with Castellan or Party in the Park but failed to think laterally. If I had that bolt wouldn’t have gone in and I have no objection to having it chopped and regret hesitating chopping it myself for reasons already stated.

[Johnny Brown]

On the only photo of Fantasia on UKC, there are four bolts clipped as far as I can see. Anyone any idea which are on what?

[shark]

Not seen that pic before. It’s obviously from the start of the route coming out of Skylight. Can’t be sure which routes but there are 6 sport up routes on that section. They are not new.

Looking at the logbook info the first was put in 1987 and the last in 2007. Gibson was the first to put bolts in. I did a couple of trad forays on that section with a point of aid (Light Entertainment E4 and Moonlight E5) which were then superseded by sport routes Gibson’s Plight of the Rich and Light and Shade both in 1987 and one of my own making Pump out the Squealies 1992. The main ethical issue I had was that Gibson chipped or at least heavily cleaned Light and Shade.

The Fantasia issue never came up from elsewhere and didn’t occur to me then or until I just looked at the photo. Can’t speak for Gibson. He knew and climbed a lot with John Codling the first ascentionist of Fantasia as did I. John has put up a lot of sport routes and wouldn’t have minded. I think one of the bolts is on POTS (I originally protected it with a RP in a groove when I did it as Moonlight). I probably assumed Fantasia went higher. Dunno. It was a long time ago.

Rightly or wrongly Fantasia was never on my radar at the time as appealing or something to climb and seemed over hyped. I vaguely recall Mark Mitchell telling me as much. My impression was that it went all over the shop but I never took a detailed interest in it or where it went. It sounds far better than that from Neil’s description.

I know it is the onus to check but a point I would like to make is that High Tor is a very complicated to make heads or tails of and the lines are not obvious particularly in the Castellan area . As an illustration IIRC Neil’s Party in the Park was a product of general misunderstanding of where Hot Gossip goes.

[shark]

I probably assumed Fantasia went higher. Dunno. It was a long time ago.

Ok. Just checked the 1992 Rockfax and the line on the topo clearly shows the first pitch taking a higher line than that taken by the climbers in the photo and above all the bolts on what I assume is fairly crappy rock. The more recent topo in Peak Lime South shows it dropping down to where they’ve gone presumably to take advantage of better rock and the bolts and the described final pitch finish is different to the first ascent line too - something that Neil has pointed out to me. Like I say it’s complicated.

[Johnny Brown]

Thanks, I'd figured/ hoped it must be Pitch 1. Does seem a shame to have all those bolts so close to what appear to be protectable cracks. Quite something that it turns out that you've now 'accidentally' retrobolted it twice now! 

There are an unusual number of diagonal lines on High tor but all the ones I've done have been excellent. Fantasia was always on my radar as the hardest of them, and knowing the line it seemed inevitable it would be high quality, at least on the main section. Having discussed it with a few partners they've said similar. Given the forensic level of detail you've shown to ferret out routes like Daydream, I can only assume nobody mentioned it to you because they all assumed you knew exactly what you were doing. So while it is a relief in some ways that it wasn't, it does raise the question of what we can do to try to stop it happening again.

And while I appreciate you feel Tony has made a personal attack, from here it looks a lot less like that. It looks like he's chopped all the most recent bolts on the main face, which just happen to all be yours.

[shark]

I don’t think I did retro bolt on that section assuming the 92 Rockfax is correct showing the original went higher.

Regarding the current state of that area of rock I can’t comment as the last I climbed or inspected there was 32 years ago which is a scary thought in itself.

Regarding no one mentioning until Tom Briggs did last year it is amazing as well considering the bolts on Big Cigar couldn’t be more visible as you ab past them for the Castellan tree descent.

Literally hundreds of climbers have abbed past them over the last 8 years some of whom will have done or known about the line of Fantasia. But then again as I said it is a confusing crag.

Also Big Cigar is the most convenient route at the Tor to debolt yet despite being in everyone’s face on the abseil no one else has been moved to do so - it would have only required a spanner.

[Tony]

Also Big Cigar is the most convenient route at the Tor to debolt yet despite being in everyone’s face on the abseil no one else has been moved to do so - it would have only required a spanner.

We will chat later Simon. But if this and the UKC thread show anything, it's that talk is cheap and apathy - when it comes to action - is high.

[Johnny Brown]

For those of use trying to follow:

Tony, you emailed Shark about Fantasia recently, before doing any chopping? He didn't reply but then bolted Storming, correct?

Shark, did you get that email?

Shark, you've now requested info on a new bolt on 'MYN'. Have scoured logs but can only assume you mean My New Hat? Assuming you don't know who placed it, but any idea when it went in?

Did you chop that one too Tony?

And by 'chopping' are we talking removing hangers and knocking stub in, or angle grinding off?