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UK General Election 2024 (Read 24810 times)

slab_happy

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#125 Re: UK General Election 2024
May 26, 2024, 08:32:33 pm
And apparently “useless eaters” is a phrase from 1930s Germany.

Playing all the hits tonight ladies and gentlemen, all the hits!

Indeed -- specifically, for anyone not aware, the phrase "useless eaters" was coined by the Nazis to refer to disabled people and to promote their systematic murder.

But apparently it's also become very popular in conspiracy theory circles as something to attribute to their hate figures of choice:

https://apnews.com/article/fact-check-klaus-schwab-fake-book-useless-eaters-232474733328

ToxicBilberry

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#126 Re: UK General Election 2024
May 26, 2024, 09:16:09 pm
A version of the term was re-popularised by Yuval Noah Harari the best selling author who describes a future in which he envisions technological advances creating lots of ‘useless people’ whom he suggests will need to be entertained. However he does not predict food will be a problem - possibly due to technological advances in production of  alternative protein sources etc. There are several interviews available in which he describes this vision of one possible future. I used it in a pejorative manner to highlight  being one of the ‘useless people’  in this particular technocratic vision. From a personal perspective I recently enjoyed G K Chesterton’s critique of Eugenics and feel very strongly about the sacredness of human life from a deontological non utilitarian perspective.

mrjonathanr

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#127 Re: UK General Election 2024
May 26, 2024, 09:23:31 pm
I used it in a pejorative manner to highlight  being one of the ‘useless people’  in this particular technocratic vision.

You use it because you’re unpleasant Dan.

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#128 Re: UK General Election 2024
May 26, 2024, 09:31:20 pm
Just to clarify, I'd merely like something like Labour's GE2017 manifesto to be their manifesto (I guess I should say "our" manifesto since I'm still a member).

Starmer said that GE2017 manifesto ought to be "Labour's foundational document" when he was running for Labour leader in 2020. All that manifesto would be doing would be introducing some trade union rights that work well in Nordic countries such as sectorial collective bargaining; adequately funding basic public services; having normal European tax levels for the very wealthy; and not just playing lip service to our climate commitments.

My understanding is the reason why we aren't able to vote for that is far from being because that wouldn't be popular. In 2017, Labour increased their vote massively (not enough though). That caused huge consternation and a very determined effort to stop that close shave from being built upon. The 2019 election was essentially just a rerun of the 2016 Brexit referendum but on a FPTP basis and gave the result that would always give.  Keir became Labour leader by lying. He has put people in all the key positions from a wing of the Party who didn't get a look in even in the 2015 leadership election let alone 2020.

If the Tories had no anxiety about Corbyn type policies, then why do they talk in such glowing terms about how Boris defeated Corbyn? Surely it should have been a non-event walk over since no-one would vote for that anyway.

The manoeuvring that has gone on to create "changed Labour" since 2020 has been extraordinary. Mass suspensions of constituency delegates the week before Labour conferences where there were votes that changed the rules on things such as member representation. The new set of parliamentary candidates have been extremely tightly controlled by the "changed" central party. There used to be a route by which trade unionists were mentored and supported to become parliamentary candidates (that's how Angela Rayner became an MP). No one on that system was selected this time.
« Last Edit: May 26, 2024, 09:44:18 pm by stone »

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#129 Re: UK General Election 2024
May 26, 2024, 09:40:45 pm
C’mon Stone, don’t crank it into reverse now. You’ve already been labelled as having an ‘authoritarian’ streak. All this beige centre left nonsense won’t get us closer to a utopia. 

stone

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#130 Re: UK General Election 2024
May 26, 2024, 09:52:01 pm
"Labeled" is what it is.

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#131 Re: UK General Election 2024
May 26, 2024, 10:01:55 pm
I had a look into the term ‘useless eater’.

This Lest We Forget: Eradicating the 'Useless Eaters' in the Third Reich from  http://worldofinclusion.com/about/ goes into some detail about the origins of the term in the context of the Nazis’ development of euthanasia for the disabled and subsequently, the Holocaust.

I can’t vouch for the accuracy of the document, but the site’s purpose as an educational charity to promote inclusion and the reference to the writer Richard Rieser on the Special Needs Jungle site https://www.specialneedsjungle.com/disability-equality-act-send-review/ give it some credibility.

Nazi terminology should not be in use on this site imo. Ironic usage is no defence.  :no:

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#132 Re: UK General Election 2024
May 26, 2024, 10:15:54 pm
I had a look into the term ‘useless eater’.

This Lest We Forget: Eradicating the 'Useless Eaters' in the Third Reich from  http://worldofinclusion.com/about/ goes into some detail about the origins of the term in the context of the Nazis’ development of euthanasia for the disabled and subsequently, the Holocaust.

I can’t vouch for the accuracy of the document, but the site’s purpose as an educational charity to promote inclusion and the reference to the writer Richard Rieser on the Special Needs Jungle site https://www.specialneedsjungle.com/disability-equality-act-send-review/ give it some credibility.

Nazi terminology should not be in use on this site imo. Ironic usage is no defence.  :no:

Well a version of that term has been adopted by a popular author of the progressive left, much to the amusement of his audience. Maybe you should burn your copy of Homo Sapiens?

https://youtu.be/IU-6YCXj6j4?feature=shared

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#133 Re: UK General Election 2024
May 26, 2024, 10:18:55 pm
I see from your response you’re comfortable with that language.

Regarding the book. I won’t be buying it.


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#134 Re: UK General Election 2024
May 26, 2024, 10:42:45 pm
"Labeled" is what it is.

Have you read ‘The Gulag Archipelago’? If not it’s a captivating read. One of my favourite bits is when Solzhenitsyn is describing his time in the communist party, before being sent to the Gulag. He writes something like ‘when I was a member of the party, doing my worst evils, I believed I was doing the greatest good, and I had all the evidence in the world to back it up’.

I think this is how evil truly works in the world - when good people do bad things in the name of good. That’s a true victory for darkness. I think that idea should be foremost in anyone’s minds before acting on any ideology. It’s the categorical imperative. Put human life first, acknowledge your shadow, and the rest will follow

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#135 Re: UK General Election 2024
May 26, 2024, 11:27:00 pm
(Wrote something but then deleted ‘cos I don’t have the time nor energy to get drawn into this)
« Last Edit: May 26, 2024, 11:32:39 pm by Falling Down »

seankenny

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#136 Re: UK General Election 2024
May 26, 2024, 11:50:39 pm
I see from your response you’re comfortable with that language.

Regarding the book. I won’t be buying it.

A quick bit of internet research suggests that the author Hari uses the phrase “useless people”, meaning if I’ve got this right, that lots of people will be unemployed and not particularly productive. But the denizens of various internet tripe holes twist that into the Nazi variant Dan seems happy to use. This took me all of five minutes to figure out; less time than it took me to read the Gulag Archipelago that’s for sure.

So there’s no excuse really for aping the Third Reich.

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#137 Re: UK General Election 2024
May 27, 2024, 12:02:34 am

So there’s no excuse really for aping the Third Reich.

Unless you want to be an edgelord…

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#138 Re: UK General Election 2024
May 27, 2024, 12:26:46 am

So there’s no excuse really for aping the Third Reich.

Unless you want to be an edgelord…

Why are you guys so obsessed with edging?

Seriously though, you can’t see the parallels between the use of the phrases? I can’t imagine Harari didn’t know what he was aping, Probably more so than Prince Philip when he used it. 

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#139 Re: UK General Election 2024
May 27, 2024, 03:11:25 am
"Labeled" is what it is.

Have you read ‘The Gulag Archipelago’? If not it’s a captivating read. One of my favourite bits is when Solzhenitsyn is describing his time in the communist party, before being sent to the Gulag. He writes something like ‘when I was a member of the party, doing my worst evils, I believed I was doing the greatest good, and I had all the evidence in the world to back it up’.

I think this is how evil truly works in the world - when good people do bad things in the name of good. That’s a true victory for darkness. I think that idea should be foremost in anyone’s minds before acting on any ideology. It’s the categorical imperative. Put human life first, acknowledge your shadow, and the rest will follow

You and I seem to have very different takes on Archipelago/Solzhenitsyn…

Apt quote though. Read it again.


So!

National Service?

I particularly enjoyed the oxymoron of the forced volunteering as an alternative to military service.

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#140 Re: UK General Election 2024
May 27, 2024, 03:54:14 am
+1 to pretty much everything Toby and Will said earlier, and to what SpiderMonkey said about climate policy.  And a lot of what Sean and some others have said.   

Quote
The 2019 election was essentially just a rerun of the 2016 Brexit referendum - Stone
No it really wasn't. 

There are, literally, millions of people out here, myself included, who despise absolutely everything imaginable about Brexit.
And yet wouldn't vote for Jeremy Corbyn if he was the last man on the planet.
Not because I think he's a terrible person or anything, I'm sure if I had a chat with him we'd agree about quite a lot.
Like many on here, I share quite a lot of the aims of the left.  Just that is emphatically not how to go about achieving those aims.
If there had been anything vagely sensible on offer from the left over the last 10 years, Brexit wouldn't have happened and we wouldn't have had 14 years of Tory government.

I will be voting for Labour at this election.
Precisely because it has woken up since 2019 and is now actually electable (and because it isn't trying to follow the absurd 2017 manifesto).
And to get the Tories out before they drift any further to the right (if reelected, they'd almost certainly kick Rishi out quickly, put someone even more to the right in power, and take us out of the ECHR - which would be even more disastrous than Brexit already is).

But anyone expecting Keir Starmer to attempt to usher in some kind of socialist utopia is going to be in for a bit of a shock.  Or they had better be, or else he certainly won't be elected again as he'll have bankrupted the country.  The Tories are in a complete shambles at the moment, as their only policy for the last 15 years has been Brexit.  And it's been a complete disaster and they all know it.  That won't last though.  If Labour go too far to the left, they'll be a one term government.

As others have said, the UK is in a totally shite situation financially.  Anyone pretending on the right that they can cut loads of taxes, or anyone on the left pretending that they can spend loads of money - in both cases, by government borrowing - just haven't been paying attention to the real world.  Any government trying to do that is just going to be shut down by the bond markets, as Liz Truss painfully found out.  People just won't lend any government money at low interest rates if they think they aren't financially credible.

The UK has debt of 2.6 trillion pounds.  That's 98% of GDP.  That is not a good position to be in, and it's vastly worse than it was a decade ago, largely thanks to the stupidity of the Boris years and the (obviously popular) furlough scheme.  The Tory government managed to spend more money on the pandemic than any other country in Europe, and yet far more people died (per capita obviously).  Throwing money at people is popular in the short term (one of the many problems with 4 year election cycles, not that I've got a better suggestion), but it's disastrous longer term.

A lot of what the left said about "austerity" in the Cameron years was nonsense.  The Tories were right to try and bring down government debt.  And they didn't even get started.  They didn't even manage to get the deficit (ie: how much the debt goes up each year) down to zero.  Let alone get started on the debt.  So, that much the Tories (before Boris and the populists got to power) were traditionally right about. 

Where the Tories are wrong, is what to cut spending on.  ie: they invariably screw poor people at the expense of the rich (ie: their focus was, ridiculously, to cut things like inheritance tax for millionaires whilst screwing the poor).

In short, the UK has been living well beyond it's means for way too long.  And there's going to have to be a many decades long, painful wake up call.  Which has been made much harder by making ourselves poorer by leaving the EU.  Sure we have our own currency, so if the government chooses to, it can essentially print money.  But that just makes everyone poorer by spiking inflation.

Keir Starmer knows all this, which is why he isn't making any big spending commitments.  And therefore why he's credible and electable.

But all that negative stuff, doesn't mean you can't have a fairly radical government that completely shakes things up and changes a lot.
It just means that you need to have sensible conversations about what you're going to cut, if you want to spend more on something.  And what (quite a lot IMO) you can improve without much financial outlay at all.

I've said it before on here, but to me, the number one problem for why so many of the country are living miserable lives, is the cost of housing.  And that the government can start doing something about by simply getting out of the way.  ie: Essentially make a bonfire out of most of the planning regulations in this country.  You can't build anything anywhere in the UK.  Environmentalism has been weaponised by every NIMBY out there, to block anything being built.  That needs to end.

And again, one of the reasons I'll be voting Labour, is that the above is pretty much what Keir Starmer has said he will do.  Obviously, I'll believe it when I see it, as there'll be lots of opposition.  But the UK needs new towns, it needs new cities, it needs vast amounts of new housing.  And at the very least, Keir Starmer appears to be making the right noises in that direction.

I don't think most of the older generation quite get how big a deal this is for the younger generation.  Go talk to some peole at uni these days.  There's a distinct split.  Between people who's parents own homes.  And those whose parents don't.  With the latter (unless they're in the top 0.1% that are going to work in Merchent banks etc) essentially knowing they're going to lead miserable lives paying ridiculous rents and never having any hope of owning a house.

Just ripping up planning regulations would be a very good start on the long tortuous path to improving this situation.

Not Social housing (govermnets are shite at running housing), unions begging for scraps, or most of the rest of what the left tends to spend far too much time obsessed with.

If a Labour government focused on something realistic, like sorting out housing, then maybe they might actually improve the lives of the less well off in the UK.


Obviously, there's lots of other things I'd like to see, from drug policy to prisons - which are probably less likely to happen, but there's all sorts of things that could significantly change the UK for the better that don't (net) cost lots of money.

But at some point the UK needs to wake up and realise it's a small country on the edge of Europe.  That whilst it currently has the sixth largest GDP in the world, in a few decades we'll be well outside the top ten and heading further down.  We're a country full of old sick people, being paid for by a diminishing supply of people of working age, made worse by Brexit stopping the huge supply of keen working age people from Europe.  One of the few things the UK has going for it is the fact that lots of people want to come here, primarily because of the language.  And because currently there's lots of work here.  But Brexit has screwed a lot of that up.

We should be sharing the financial burden of all sorts of things with other like minded countries across Europe - from satellites to fighter jets.  We simply can't afford to keep waving our willies around on the world stage any more - unless it's part of larger groups of countries, whether that be the EU or NATO.

So, I'd be rejoining the customs union and various other EU institutions, and I think Labour is currently being a bit timid around this (for perhaps understandable political reasons, but hopefully in time that will change as by all the polling I've seen, the vast majority now think Brexit was a mistake).


And this isn't likely to happen, but as I've said before on here, in an ideal world, I'd want to see income tax come down, and wealth tax (particularly as people die) go up.  Sean argued previously that you couldn't generate much income from inheritance tax.  I disagree.  I'm not suggesting the following is a good (politically at least) idea to do in one go - but if the goverment simply inherited and sold into the market, every property once it's owner or joint owners had died.  That would rather obviously generate a lot of money.  And would create a lot fairer society at a stroke. 

The UK has over the last 25 years become an aristocracy again, just with a larger number of people owning the land.  It's about time that changed.  It would obviously need doing a lot more carefully than just slapping a 100% inheritance tax on all property, so that you don't crash the housing market.

But one thing I'd love to see is the government having a target for house price inflation.  That's essentially either 0%, or something slightly negative.  Obviously, like with interest rates, there's a lot of things that affect house prices in the short term.  But over a longer period, essentially house prices are dictated by government policy.  Build more houses, change planning regulations, remove the incentives for large swathes of the population to invest their retirement savings in property, change inheritance tax so people can't pass property on to the next generation etc etc.  There's all sorts of things that can be done and should be done along these lines IMO.  I'm not daft enough to expect much of it to actually happen - for the time being all governments in the UK seem to have decided (probably rightly) that rising house prices wins elections, as most voters own houses.  At some point though, that equation will change. To me it would be better to start the change earlier, rather than waiting until there's enough anger in the younger generation to generate a much more radical government policy than changes to IHT.

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#141 Re: UK General Election 2024
May 27, 2024, 05:27:28 am
You forgot the pending disaster of “Equity release”.
If you think things are getting a bit feudal now, give it ten years.
Quite a few of those “children of home owners” are in for a shock.

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#142 Re: UK General Election 2024
May 27, 2024, 06:35:13 am
How is it financially irresponsible to do what has worked for decades in Nordic countries- That is to have sectorial collective bargaining such that everyone doing the jobs everyone needs done gets decent pay such that they can pay taxes and not need to be on in work benefits. That is how you can then pay for what is needed.

What doesn't work is to think poverty can be eliminated by hoping somehow people can be on poverty wages and then get sufficient in-work benefits.

What doesn't work is to think speculative house price bubbles driven by ending restrictions on buy-to-let mortgages can be perpetuated for ever without v bad consequences.

Also all this "we have no money" stuff has about as much intersection with reality as had the "pharaoh is the embodiment of the sun god" stuff back in Ancient Egypt. It similarly seems to be very effective in putting people in their place though  :(

Government money is just an administrative system for ushering people. If we have the people, it is simply a case of what they are happy to do.

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#143 Re: UK General Election 2024
May 27, 2024, 07:31:33 am
How is it financially irresponsible to do what has worked for decades in Nordic countries- That is to have sectorial collective bargaining such that everyone doing the jobs everyone needs done gets decent pay such that they can pay taxes and not need to be on in work benefits. That is how you can then pay for what is needed.

What doesn't work is to think poverty can be eliminated by hoping somehow people can be on poverty wages and then get sufficient in-work benefits.

What doesn't work is to think speculative house price bubbles driven by ending restrictions on buy-to-let mortgages can be perpetuated for ever without v bad consequences.

Also all this "we have no money" stuff has about as much intersection with reality as had the "pharaoh is the embodiment of the sun god" stuff back in Ancient Egypt. It similarly seems to be very effective in putting people in their place though  :(

Government money is just an administrative system for ushering people. If we have the people, it is simply a case of what they are happy to do.

1: The decades bit, for one. We don’t have that, we could, but it would take time to implement and it’s not without its flaws.
2: Has anyone suggested such a thing?
3: See 2.
4: The UK does not exist in a bubble, to a very great extent, we are beholden to what the global consensus of what the definition of “broke” is. I reckon this is changing. Quite a few nations, with influence on that definition, are beginning to realise they’re broke by their own standards. To use an extreme ( and silly because I prefer to be “humorous”, don’t be offended) what you imply here, is a little bit like, perhaps, a bloke walking into a pub and saying “Landlord! I have decided to print my own money. This (pull out old receipt covered in biro doodles) is worth £20 pounds. Line ‘em up!).
5: Technically true, I suppose, “Brave New Deals” have a reasonable track record.
On the other hand, it’s a complex and difficult calculation (ask Sean). Simplified: Cut defence spending and reallocate that money to Helalth care. Short term, you’ll achieve little tangible change in the health care most people experience, whilst increasing public expectation, a deficit in personnel that requires either the importation of qualified personnel or a significant re provision of eduction (that won’t answer to the need for several years, even after it’s established) and a lot of upset, unemployed defence sector workers.
I’m assuming here you are advocating ripping off the Plaster? I don’t think you realise how hard THE PEOPLE tm, will cling to it. Me? I’d use plenty of water, maybe some moisturiser, a lot of understanding and sympathy (clearly vocalised) and just accept it will take longer than I would like. Then, of course, you might pull the scab off with the plaster, or find some unexpected infection lurking.

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#144 Re: UK General Election 2024
May 27, 2024, 07:36:04 am
Regarding government money, I'm not advocating anything new, merely acknowledging how it actually is here and now.

Like I said it would be great to know how what you think fits in around what is discussed in https://jwmason.org/slackwire/thirteen-questions-about-money/

Also like I said, in terms of keeping the cycle circling rather than debt building up, GE2017 manifesto type policies where people get paid well and so pay taxes actually is more "fiscally conservative".

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#145 Re: UK General Election 2024
May 27, 2024, 08:26:38 am

My understanding is the reason why we aren't able to vote for that is far from being because that wouldn't be popular. In 2017, Labour increased their vote massively (not enough though). That caused huge consternation and a very determined effort to stop that close shave from being built upon. The 2019 election was essentially just a rerun of the 2016 Brexit referendum but on a FPTP basis and gave the result that would always give.  Keir became Labour leader by lying. He has put people in all the key positions from a wing of the Party who didn't get a look in even in the 2015 leadership election let alone 2020.


Point of order, but this isn't correct. Labour did increase their vote share in 2017 but that's basically irrelevant in our FPTP system. It was a deeply ineffexicient vote share, stacking additional votes up in cities where labour was already going to win and adding almost no votes whatsoever in places they did need, like the now cliche red wall. That manifesto simply won't win in the UK under FPTP. I wish it were otherwise but that's the reality.

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#146 Re: UK General Election 2024
May 27, 2024, 09:22:55 am
Well this escalated quickly. ::)
One of the reasons I am reluctant to post on here these days is that I don't wish to be one of the same dominating voices that leaves little space for anyone else, especially anyone new. 

Anyhow I was asked about my constituency and who is likely to win.  Lib Dems will win.

If the extensive rants above prove anything, it is that the majority are convinced the Labour Party are the right choice.  They will win a whopping majority.  Most Conservative voters will switch or not turn out for them. 

IT'S A FREE VOTE - you can vote with your conscious.

Finally, whoever suggested changing the Labour Party from within, clearly has not been paying attention.  The Labour Party is not a democratic organisation under Starmer.  They'll allow the most hard right vile Conservative MPs to cross the floor and welcome with open arms.  Then on the other hand, they'll purge someone for liking a Green Party post on social media eg. a friend that would be standing as a parliamentary candidate was removed from the Party for doing just this.  They would've been a great MP but we'll never know and local members will not get to choose.  It's become a disgraceful organisation treating it's own staff like crap (fire and rehire), purging members for spurious reasons, allowing vile individuals with racist tendencies and abusive attitudes in (Search Neil Coyle MP), accepting hard right Conservatives, ignoring motions passed at conference (eg. they won't implement PR), a sharp increase in Jewish members being expelled, failure to implement or even communicate with the author of the Forde report, supported collective punishment, endless lies, lies, pledge is a redefined word in the LP etc. etc.  It's a disgusting pit.  Not an organisation I would want to be a part of or would vote for. 

FREE VOTE - you can vote with your conscious, you should vote with your conscious.


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#147 Re: UK General Election 2024
May 27, 2024, 09:30:41 am
In the words of one Green Party councillor celebrating their victory

‘WE WILL NOT BE SILENCED!’

‘ALLAHU AKBAR!!! ALLAHU AKBAR!!!’

https://youtube.com/shorts/Y1vcaokUhiM?feature=shared

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#148 Re: UK General Election 2024
May 27, 2024, 09:49:02 am
Thanks for the heads up on Ayn Rand, after a quick look at the Ayn Rand institute website I think I'll spend a bit of time reading her stuff. Re - the vote. I think Stone answered that already - it doesn't matter who you vote for as in the words of George Galloway - 'they're two cheeks of the same arsehole'. I'd like to see the Conservatives get zero seats, you're right, they're awful! It might be worth spending time reading about Elite Theory, it provides one way of understanding how power works, it is quite mainstream and doesn't talk about Cabal's or Sheeple. Re - useless eaters, a good example of useless eater policy was the mass sterilisation of Indian women from the 50's to the 70's - 18.5 million.

That you have looked up Ayn Rand and thought "I should read her stuff" speaks volumes

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#149 Re: UK General Election 2024
May 27, 2024, 09:49:56 am
It's conscience.

If we're to get rid of Philip Davies we're going to need a lot of people to throw their weight behind Labour in Shipley.

 

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