[petejh]

If you step back to think through what you're trying to say here it's along the lines of: 'I want credit for the first ascent of a sport route that I'm ideologically against creating, AND, I want to dictate to others that this route be kept free of bolts so that I can later attempt to do it as a trad route and claim another first ascent'. Never mind anyone else wanting to repeat your sport route that you've publicised...

This isn't how it works, and if other first ascensionists went around with this mindset climbing would be much the shitter for it. I want the moon on a stick for me and me only...

Or, to put it another way and take a further step back, you're essentially questioning the legitimacy of what Franco did because 4 quickdraws were attached to a rope instead of bolts....

''Questioning the legitimacy'' makes it sound like questioning whether someone actually climbed something. If you read back, some posters may have questioned the legitimacy but I haven't -  I've clearly said he's obviously climbed the moves (and therefore the route), not that I think he needs anyone's approval as he's obviously perfectly capable of making up his own mind!

This was my take, for what it's worth:

It's obviously a legit ascent of the moves. He's just done it in a style that's so poor and out of the ordinary when it was completely unnecessary - the wall's already covered in bolts!  .

It's a classic 'if everyone else did it like that, climbing would be shit, that's why they don't do it like that'.

That's what I think - it's a deterioration in style, not an improvement or as good as current style. That wall and whole quarry is covered in bolted routes so it isn't like he's defending anything here apart from his own narrow view of how climbing should be. But, as pointed out, because he needed the protection afforded by a sport ascent but wished it was a trad route while not having the necessaries to climb it as a trad route, he inadvertently ended up getting it bolted anyway by people who quite understandably probably think as soon as you go publicising a first ascent as a sport route it's a sport route! That alone should tell you what people think of this nonsense style. Can't see why you're so keen to defend it other than not liking seeing someone piled on; I don't either.

Didn't you climb an 8c at Malham recently? I assume you enjoyed the experience? Why do you get to enjoy playing on bolted routes without having to faff around with dangly knotted ropes for protection, but think someone setting a precedent for putting up new sport routes without bolts, which is a very simple and tempting thing for lots of us who new route to go out and do if you think it's so OK, is a good move stylistically?

[stone]

P.s. I love that the Raven Tor story has evolved so much that someone now actually believes they were a victim of my 'theft'! What actually happened is that a mischievous older climber put me onto striping some draws from Raven Tor when I was a kid and didn't know what sport climbing was. I went there on my ow :chair:n and asked someone who was climbing at the crag (maybe Simon?) what the ethics were about taking the draws there, as I thought they'd been left behind. The person told me in clear terms that they weren't fair game! A stupid story and shows how little I knew at the time, but no draws were ever taken!

You've got to admit that it adds to your mystique that you told someone you took them and wrote posts at the time justifying having taken them and now say you didn't!
It's there in black and white isn't it https://ukbouldering.com/board/index.php/topic,10781.msg181313.html#msg181313

Like I said, pretty much everyone now thinks draws ought not to be left in and would say you (or whoever) were/was ahead of the time and it was a good thing.

[kingholmesy]

For me the main point, which I think Pete has made pretty well up thread, is that the experience of climbing a route with a knotted rope hanging next to you just feels a bit whack.

I’m not sure that this makes the claim to have done a route somehow “invalid”, and I can see the point that logically it’s not much different from clipping bolts (i.e. in terms of physical effort, and danger which should be irrelevant for a sports route), it just gives a worse experience for reasons which are difficult to fully articulate.

[Paul B]

You've made a mistake by reading a long UKC article and assuming I wrote it/ sent in a massive press release. That's your reading error, I hadn't at all:

No, I haven't. I've read a UKC article that didn't contain the detail, seen someone raise it in the comments and been surprised that nothing has been added to the article (and yes, I think that's quite poor of UKC too). Let's face it, it's quite a 'unique' detail to the ascent, no? ...and that's before we go back in time and consider the Prow.

In terms of anonymity (as I commented on this, so assume this part is levelled at me), I'd suggest "Paul B" (which is about as hard to decipher as petejh and others like Shark) is less anonymous than "Franco" (without an additional C I might add).

And the idea that me placing a couple of bolts and creating a designer danger line would have gone down better is hilarious. That really is classic UKB, shifting which tiny ethical issue to get most outraged by 🤣

This baffles me. Why not? A well bolted start with a designer danger finish doesn't seem all the out of place (if a little conflicted) and I can even think of MP routes elsewhere in the world where there's plenty of this going on.

For the record, reading the article my first thought was something along the lines of "blimey, this guy is pretty handy on this kind of terrain" and now it's something along the same lines with "I wish it didn't always come with a side dish of controversy".

EDIT: in terms of gluing holds, I'll echo what others have said. Breakage happens and it's something we need to accept. I had a season at WCJ collecting bits of routes that had broken off until I had enough to warrant opening a tube of glue. I spent the day gluing things (not climbing) but tried to squeeze one route in at Rubicon before going back to the car. Naturally I ripped a jug off that smacked me in the face and promptly threw it as far as I could into the water. I don't think I've glued anything else since.

[mrjonathanr]

Like I said, pretty much everyone now thinks draws ought not to be left in and would say you (or whoever) were/was ahead of the time and it was a good thing.

Come on Stone, leaving draws in has been frowned on since redpointing became a thing.

[Adam Lincoln]

I hadn't seen any of the vids of the set up, there's one here https://www.instagram.com/p/CsR5-l8ADGV/

Franco, in future, an alpine butterfly would be a better knot as its better for 3 way loadings.

[Andy F]

History has shown us that people who mainly climb in one area or in one style of routes often get their gradar out of kilter. Franco isn't immune to this. Clearly he's climbed something hard (in an admittedly odd style, again), but his painful lack of experience across the broader climbing spectrum shows up at these times.

I’m not sure that’s entirely fair. AFAIK Franco’s done some hard-ish stuff not only in the NY Moors but also at Nescliffe, on Cornish granite and now on slate. I know there’s been some doubts over the grades of some of his FAs and repeats, but I think saying he has a “painful lack of experience across the broader climbing spectrum” is probably overstating it. Sure he is stronger in some styles than others, but aren’t most climbers?

He's obviously great at what he does. But very niche. The best climbers are great at, well, climbing everything. He's not. And his grading is based on a very narrow spectrum.

Plus, TBH he comes online as a total knob.

[Andy F]

Actually, thinking about it, I'm probably coming across as a knob, but I've got an important point.

We have ethics and values. Breaking those destroys our values.
I'm not willing to see history pissed on by an arrogant, self centered arse.

[SA Chris]

I think 4 knots and 5 bolts?

I've belayed 2 people on The Medium and 2 people on The Quarryman over the last couple of weeks and all have extended bolts - it's common practice on slate routes if you want a 'sport experience'.

Surely you can see this clearly false equivalence to say they are same thing? A long quickdraw or even a 6ft sling is very different.

[stone]

We have ethics and values. Breaking those destroys our values.
I'm not willing to see history pissed on

If no one had been willing to diverge from the convention (of that time), then we would never have got sport climbing.

[Andy F]

We have ethics and values. Breaking those destroys our values.
I'm not willing to see history pissed on

If no one had been willing to diverge from the convention (of that time), then we would never have got sport climbing.

Sport climbing in the UK happened as climbers used fixed gear from aid climbing, then bolted blank pieces of rock with no/minimal gear. It's very different to this scenario.

[abarro81]

Andy, it very much seems like you're being deliberately cantankerous here because you don't like Franco.

Pete has been spot on through this whole thread, and I agree that you can't have your cake and eat it. Either claim the sport route and expect it to get bolted (or, better actually bolt it yourself), bolt it designer danger and wait until you can do that, or keep it as a trad project. On the plus side, if Caff's now bolted it, it all seems somehow appropriate - this is how Disney would have made make the movie, with a moral about our need for attention and "content" and all that scuppering our own dreams...

I suspect that this:

And the idea that me placing a couple of bolts and creating a designer danger line would have gone down better is hilarious.

is simply you not wanting to admit to yourself that you fucked up Franco, since it's very obviously bollocks.

[Fiend]

This episode is almost entirely about me having not bolted a direct start to a sport route and instead super-extending a draw.

I hadn't seen any of the vids of the set up, there's one here https://www.instagram.com/p/CsR5-l8ADGV/

 

25 weeks ago?? Did no-one, at any point, point out that this was very obviously bollocks??

[shark]

P.s. I love that the Raven Tor story has evolved so much that someone now actually believes they were a victim of my 'theft'! What actually happened is that a mischievous older climber put me onto striping some draws from Raven Tor when I was a kid and didn't know what sport climbing was. I went there on my ow :chair:n and asked someone who was climbing at the crag (maybe Simon?) what the ethics were about taking the draws there, as I thought they'd been left behind. The person told me in clear terms that they weren't fair game! A stupid story and shows how little I knew at the time, but no draws were ever taken!

You've got to admit that it adds to your mystique that you told someone you took them and wrote posts at the time justifying having taken them and now say you didn't!
It's there in black and white isn't it https://ukbouldering.com/board/index.php/topic,10781.msg181313.html#msg181313

Stone - he didn’t say he took them in the comment you linked, he just agreed that he was there with the purpose of taking them although it was ambiguously phrased where he said ‘I don’t see what’s wrong with that’

When I met Franco for what I thought was the first time a few years ago at a BMC meeting in the North East he told me that we had met previously when he went to Raven Tor where I dissuaded him from taking in situ draws (this would have been pre Damascene conversion) although he didn’t say anything about being put up to it by another climber. It sounds like it could have been me but I don’t recall the occasion - I have a terrible memory. Obviously now I’d say fill your boots - they shouldn’t have been left there.

[Adam Lincoln]

Actually, thinking about it, I'm probably coming across as a knob, but I've got an important point.

You are, and a bully. You should know better Andy.

[spidermonkey09]

Actually, thinking about it, I'm probably coming across as a knob, but I've got an important point.

We have ethics and values. Breaking those destroys our values.
I'm not willing to see history pissed on by an arrogant, self centered arse.

Is that a Suella Braverman quote? Give it a rest.

[danm]

Climbing ethics are developed by consensus, which is most easily formed by persuasion and if necessary a bit of piss taking. Threatening or abusing someone doesn't tend to achieve the result we're after, but I guess the self righteous fury feels pretty good at the time.

The talented Franco has climbed something hard, but possibly tainted his ascent because a) he courts controversy and needs the attention b) is just oddly cantankerous c) is a visionary, we just don't know it yet. None of which matters really, since the prime directive has not been breached - no rock was chipped or damaged to affect future ascents. So maybe a bit of knicker untwisting is in order Andy.

[shark]

None of which matters really, since the prime directive has not been breached - no rock was chipped or damaged to affect future ascents. So maybe a bit of knicker untwisting is in order Andy.

Hold on a sec Dan, I don’t think we’ve fully deconstructed the reconstruction part of Franco’s essay. 

[monkoffunk]

Climbing ethics are developed by consensus, which is most easily formed by persuasion and if necessary a bit of piss taking. Threatening or abusing someone doesn't tend to achieve the result we're after, but I guess the self righteous fury feels pretty good at the time.

The talented Franco has climbed something hard, but possibly tainted his ascent because a) he courts controversy and needs the attention b) is just oddly cantankerous c) is a visionary, we just don't know it yet. None of which matters really, since the prime directive has not been breached - no rock was chipped or damaged to affect future ascents. So maybe a bit of knicker untwisting is in order Andy.

I’m not sure its b, seemed oddly measured given some of the unjustified abuse hurled his way.

[mark20]

The talented Franco has climbed something hard, but possibly tainted his ascent because a) he courts controversy and needs the attention b) is just oddly cantankerous c) is a visionary, we just don't know it yet. None of which matters really, since the prime directive has not been breached - no rock was chipped or damaged to affect future ascents. So maybe a bit of knicker untwisting is in order Andy.

Unfortunately this isn't quite right, as Franco says
"one of those very thin slate spikes broke and left a small useable hold. This ruined both the jump move (you can use this hold with your right hand for that) and the hard rockover (you can use a lower foot on this hold).For me, a significant part of the quality of the route was this dynamic and wild headwall sequence."
So he "badly resined" up the hold, but there is "no contoversy to see here."
Well actually I think there is. I don't think there is much of a precedent to change holds to force sequences on slate, grit or mountain rock types. And making a poor job of it, again, isn't acceptable from someone so talented and prolific.

[Franco]

There's definitely precedent, even of chipping. (Not to say that's right). As I say, there's a very obvious repair to the Meltdown jug for starters, which has been done to maintain a sequence, and I'm still yet to see any criticism of this on here. This is bright white cement on slate. Do you think that's wrong? A bit like all the repairs that happen on limestone, the reason why these things stay low key is because people keep them on the down low, rather than being subtly 'leaked' to a mate to then post on UKB.

Grit and mountain routes have far less history of accepted/ignored hold repair. I don't think you can group slate in with them.

I might agree with you that we shouldn't repair any holds, but to target what I did on this route does just feel like an unfair pile on.

[Franco]

Andy, it very much seems like you're being deliberately cantankerous here because you don't like Franco.

Pete has been spot on through this whole thread, and I agree that you can't have your cake and eat it. Either claim the sport route and expect it to get bolted (or, better actually bolt it yourself), bolt it designer danger and wait until you can do that, or keep it as a trad project. On the plus side, if Caff's now bolted it, it all seems somehow appropriate - this is how Disney would have made make the movie, with a moral about our need for attention and "content" and all that scuppering our own dreams...

I suspect that this:

And the idea that me placing a couple of bolts and creating a designer danger line would have gone down better is hilarious.

is simply you not wanting to admit to yourself that you fucked up Franco, since it's very obviously bollocks.

I thought about it a lot and chatted to lots or people about it. I just thought it was a bit silly but a good solution.  I  don't regret what I did at all and will probably do it again with the project on the right.

[Franco]

I think 4 knots and 5 bolts?

I've belayed 2 people on The Medium and 2 people on The Quarryman over the last couple of weeks and all have extended bolts - it's common practice on slate routes if you want a 'sport experience'.

Surely you can see this clearly false equivalence to say they are same thing? A long quickdraw or even a 6ft sling is very different.

I mean I can see where you're coming from, but I really don't think it matters. If I did it and didn't tell anyone, I don't think any of you would have had a problem with it(?). The main issue seems to be that I've sprayed about it on Instagram.  I kind of see that I maybe have a responsibility not to promote daft practices,  but I really don't think it matters that much.  These things will get worked out eventually.  You have to keep in perspective what I actually did - tied a rope to some bolts.

[abarro81]

I  don't regret what I did at all and will probably do it again with the project on the right.

Your post make no sense Franco. The route seems to have been bolted because of your approach (climbing it like a sport route and naming/grading it as a sport route). You also said you were upset by it being bolted. Not regretting it at all seems incompatible with being upset about it being bolted. If you repeat this on another route you shouldn't be surprised if it gets bolted!


On the sika:
Lots of things on lime get "fixed" but lots of things also don't. The trend in my experience in recent times has been towards less retrospective use of sika to fix breakage unless strictly necessary (whether the break makes it easier or harder). Trying to claim that doing what you want with sika must be uncontroversial because there's other sika at the crag doesn't stand up to scrutiny; however, perfectly reasonable people will disagree on what should or shouldn't cross the line to fixing. I don't see a pile on here, I see people disagreeing with the idea that this kind of "fix" is uncontroversial. I've seen people get very angry at this kind of thing at other crags that have plenty of sika around, so it's not nearly as clear cut that this is ok as you seem to think. Personally I'd rather not manipulate with sika in the situation you're talking about, and I'd rather others didn't.

[Paul B]

The reason why these things stay low key is because people keep them on the down low, rather than being subtly 'leaked' to a mate to then post on UKB.

Is this a reference to Northern Yob bringing it up in this thread as it was posted about elsewhere (Twitter) for anyone to see?