[sherlock]

Kindred is a really great name too. Bravo!

I'm guessing it's on the same part of the crag as the route 'Brothers Eliminate?'
I don't have the guide to hand.

[36chambers]

Kinder Surprise must have been a serious contender

[andy popp]

K.I.N.D.E.R

KNDR

[teestub]

A$hop Rocky

[Will Hunt]

kinDerMaTe

[cheque]

Kindred is a really great name too. Bravo!

I'm guessing it's on the same part of the crag as the route 'Brothers Eliminate?'
I don't have the guide to hand.

It’s the next section of the crag along but it’s about 250m away. Wellington Slab and Scooper Dooper are the routes either side of it.

[sherlock]

Ta!

[SA Chris]

Kinderlingus (similar has been done before, but that was taken from the old Not the Nine O clock news sketch).

[Bonjoy]

Kinder Surprise must have been a serious contender

There's already a climb of that name on Kinder South

[remus]

El Mocho is putting in a good attempt at taking the "most confusingly named problem" title off the Ali Baba cave in Rodellar with his extension/improvement/refinement of Leviathan on Rhoscolyn "Big Leviathan Extended (Sans Resin)" and suggested ~8C.

I feel like a problem of this quality needs a name reset!

https://northwalesbouldering.com/newsitem.asp?nsid=1079

[Pantontino]

It's just Big Leviathan. I can change the title of the news item if it bothers you.

[remus]

No stress, I was just joking. Looks an ace piece of climbing so great to see the full line get done.

[Johnny Brown]

Not like Ben not to offer a more worse name!

I vote for: Big Big Leviathan (don't touch the glue)

[SA Chris]

The Great Leviathanski

[northern yob]

Not like Ben not to offer a more worse name!

I vote for: Big Big Leviathan (don't touch the glue)

🤣 have you seen it….. it’s 100% glue
There’s absolutely no sign of a hold ever being there…

More of the same from the ethically corrupt north wales scene! 🤣

On a more serious note, my strong moral compass and spirit of Ken says the manufactured hold should be dealt with appropriately now…. I’m completely ethically compromised at the same time because the problems using it are undeniably world class. I don’t agree with it ever being there but it is….. highlights the creep! now it’s there I kinda think it should stay….. I’m very confused

[jakaitch]

Is it a completely manufactured hold, not sticking something back on/artificailly replacing a lost hold (not sure thats any better like)?

[El Mocho]

I feel like a problem of this quality needs a name reset!

I think now all the development of the boulder has finished there will be a natural reset on stuff - there is only the 1 line so it would make sense to include the sit to high finish, stand to high finish and probably include James' original (crouch to low finish) as this is already and likely to stay the most popular. There resin hold and sans resin versions do add some confusion.

If you turn up now, with the landing how it is, the low finishes seem a little strange, esp with such a big jug higher up. If the landing had been in this state the whole time I don't think me or Tim would have recorder them. We looked at the high finish and jokingly said it would be great, Dyer then moved tonnes (literally) of boulders to make it possible but you still do need a decent amount of pads. I first did James' version with just the 1 pad and for this full version I must have had 8 or more.

Leviathan (original James + Sam version)
Big Leviathan (sit to jug finish)
Big Leviathan Stand (stand start to jug finish)
Big Leviathan sans resin (sit to jug no resin hold for hands or feet, stand version without resin is pos but doesn't really need recording)

Obv with ukc everything can be recorded. It might take a visit for someone without skin in the game/previous ideas on it to have clarity on it all!

[El Mocho]

Is it a completely manufactured hold, not sticking something back on/artificailly replacing a lost hold (not sure thats any better like)?

I don't want to talk for James too much here as I've not spoken in depth with him about it, and I think he is on here so can speak for himself! But the impression/my recollection from speaking with him is that there was a hold there which came off and crumbled/broke up. There was nothing to glue back on so James recreated what was there out of resin. I have no reason to doubt this but what is there does, unfortunately, not look like how you would expect a hold to be naturally. The resin hold isn't massively obvious/ugly when not close (the resin could maybe have been colour matched to the rock a bit) but when you look closer it stands out more as it is both a bit unpleasant to pull on and doesn't look like how you would expect a hold to be in that place but again I have no reason to doubt James that he recreated what was there, it's just a bit unfortunate that it had formed a flake/edge in that way which then broke...

There are plenty of places in North Wales where holds have been glued back on, not Peak Lime numbers but it is a relatively accepted practice as it is elsewhere in the UK. Obv it is far from ideal. In this instance there was nothing left to stick back on which does feel a little trickier.

I don't really feel super strongly about removing what is there now, it would likely make as much/more of a mess than the current situation and might well piss off a bunch of folk trying the normal versions which use it, and I'm not sure if my status as doing the FA without the hold really gives me a bunch more say than other folk. I'm not sure on James' views either, he may well regret having built that hold now it's been proved to be possible without it, he might not regret the decision as it's made a great 7C+, and again I'm not sure if his opinion is more or less valid than other folks.

[yetix]

I'd be gutted if the hold on the 7C+ went, but that's mostly because I was close on it in the past and would love to return when I've sorted out some nerve issues.

I didn't realise the hold was resin when I went the first time and only knew after Bradders went. Looks a much better job than most repairs I've seen even if it is manufactured.

Anyhow nice work Ben!

[grimer]

Get Tony to sort it out.

[Tony]

Get Tony to sort it out.

Out of my remit: North Wales has an area-wide ULEZ (Ultra-Low Ethics Zone).

[andy popp]

I'm not sure if my status as doing the FA without the hold really gives me a bunch more say than other folk.

Fwiw (e.g. nothing) I think that yes, it absolutely does. I'm not sure this would even have been a question in the past?

This problem has been reported on/posted about a lot and very positively as it has evolved and also become popular. I'm slightly amazed that this is the first time - unless I missed something - that it has been reported that it has a completely artificial resin hold. That kinda seems like quite an important detail.

[andy moles]

I'm not sure if my status as doing the FA without the hold really gives me a bunch more say than other folk.

Fwiw (e.g. nothing) I think that yes, it absolutely does. I'm not sure this would even have been a question in the past?

Without wanting to sidetrack too much, I think Ben's humility on this point should be applauded.

It's a tricky thing to pin down, how much value a FA's actions or opinions should have compared to other people. How much it matters maybe depends on how much the FA actually cares, which obviously might change over time.

My feeling is that, broadly speaking and trying to put it succinctly, the FA's view matters more than any other individual in the short term, but it doesn't matter more than a consensus of opinion in the long term.

As to whether an artificial hold should stay on a problem that's been done without it...well, it's easy to have an opinion when you've nothing invested either way 

[36chambers]

Does anyone know the grade change to the original 7C+ without the resin hold and also which version climbs better?

[grimer]

This problem has been reported on/posted about a lot and very positively as it has evolved and also become popular. I'm slightly amazed that this is the first time - unless I missed something - that it has been reported that it has a completely artificial resin hold. That kinda seems like quite an important detail.

Actually, this coming up is a bit like how, on page 7 of Franco's Twill Mawr route posts, it was mentioned that there was no bolts just a knotty rope.

Actually, in both occasions, it was Bransby who dropped these facts.

Actually, far from being a disinterested gentleman who just wants everyone to have a nice time, the guy's an arch-player!