[SA Chris]

That's not what's being discussed.

[Will Hunt]

d) realistically you have to accept that places like Caley are very extensive, very good, and very easily accessible and you're not going to completely alter the tastes and wants of the majority of climbers.

For me I think this is the core of it. You're not gonna shift the hordes away from plantation but you will be taking something tangible away from people who want to trudge across moorland and brush scrittle off something in their own company.

Putting aside theoreticals about removing the strain from popular venues and focusing on Grinah: what Bonjoy said. Realistically for this crag there will still be very few visitors. What you're actually taking away is the opportunity to visit a venue and climb things which don't have any identity. Most of those things will have been climbed previously; for some of the harder things that will be unclear.
That's an experience that you could have by just ignoring the guidebook. It's also an experience which, I'd argue, is seen as generally inferior by most climbers. If it weren't then we wouldn't have guidebooks and, even if we did, people wouldn't use them.

[teestub]

That's an experience that you could have by just ignoring the guidebook.

If you don’t want to use the bolts on a retrobolted sport climb you can just ignore them…

As to your second point, I’d point you to the music industry as an example of how things which are popular are not necessarily better.

[Teaboy]

What is the argument for not advertising it? Is it an SSSI or has sensitive access (it’s all CRoW isn’t it?), is the rock particularly friable or is it just to make it even more of a wilderness experience than it would be if documented?

[andy popp]

While we're having a sane and balanced exchange of views, I did get forwarded this from an anonymous member of a private chat....

I do want to have a moan though as I’ve just seen the grinah thread. Is nowhere safe from the fucking virus that climbers are? These places do not need traffic - it’s a bullshit argument by people who have to spread their blogs/videos/instabook. I’ve been going regularly up on the moors for the last 15 years, including finding the known problems on howshaw, outer edge, crow, barrow before any fucker knew about them. The peak is fucked so why can’t climbers just for once not ruin yet another place for those who actually like adventure. Leave no trace is fucking lost on climbers it seems. Hypocritical wankers. Bah, rant over.

 

Sounds like an insufferable bigoted and tedious arsehole. No wonder they avoid company.

Quite. Not least as I first bouldered on Howshaw close to 30 years ago and there's no way I was first. I guess I'm not just any fucker.

[Bonjoy]

What is the argument for not advertising it? Is it an SSSI or has sensitive access (it’s all CRoW isn’t it?), is the rock particularly friable or is it just to make it even more of a wilderness experience than it would be if documented?

The latter. The rock quality is very good and there are no access issues or particular wildlife issues.

[andy_e]

Why is projecting an anthropogenic identity onto a vertical collection of sand and pebbles necessary to deem it worthwhile to climb? Rock has its own identity, although it's perhaps not one recognised through a commodified, global-north mentality. If by identity you mean some sense of history through the overlauded explorers of yore having climbed it years and years ago, then I can partially understand that point of view, but the history of a series of moves up a natural line can be just as satiated by "I turned a corner and saw a rock I wanted to climb. I gave it my own unspoken name and my own kinaesthetically-derived identity that lives solely within me, relies on my own imagination, and is flavoured with a mixture of spices brought on the wind, the weather, and the wildlife." There exists very few places to have such an experience in England, and arguably in Wales too, so why not leave it there for people who would enjoy that experience to find for themselves? It's not an experience that can be had by going to Stanage without a guidebook, because there, there's an implicit knowledge that what you're climbing has someone else's story attached to it, without knowing what that story is.

There is indeed an argument that not extensively documenting it could be gatekeeping, which is why I would support the idea of hints and teases online and in guidebooks, but nothing more than would spoil a potentially magical experience.

A few apologies: sorry if this has already been said, there were a fair few TL,DRs in there. Secondly, fuck, I appear have gone full Redhead, just without the phalli. Thirdly, I wholeheartedly support documenting most things, hence potentially appearing hypocritical...

I'm now also worried I sound a bit like Fiend's DM pal. Hopefully not...

[DAVETHOMAS90]

I can appreciate the sentiment of "people shouldn't be climbing X, Y and Z" but not "other people shouldn't be climbing X, Y and Z but I'm fine to do it." Either people are allowed to climb on it or they ain't.

That's not what's being discussed.

I'm not sure that's true.

It's more than "I wish no-one else knew about the problems here". I think that's the point Wellsy is making.

[Bonjoy]

That's an experience that you could have by just ignoring the guidebook.

If you don’t want to use the bolts on a retrobolted sport climb you can just ignore them…

That seems a bad analogy to me. Bolts are in your face throughout when climbing a line of them and can be clipped with the same kit you have for trad climbing the line.
A more accurate analogy would be a bolted line where you could magically choose to have the bolts in or out during your ascent.

[cheque]

fuck, I appear have gone full Redhead

 

[Jacqusie]

I think E A Baker might have the first ascents on the hills round Bleaklow, describing the Barrow Stones as 'like some rude Stonehenge or a battered circle of pre-historic buildings"

Who said they aren't documented in a guide book? His was published in 1903

Some of the patina at the Barrow stones is solid, but in other parts is a bit poppadom thin on some of the more weathered boulders

[Johnny Brown]

That's not what's being discussed.

I'm not sure that's true.

It's more than "I wish no-one else knew about the problems here". I think that's the point Wellsy is making.

I would still agree with Chris that that is not under discussion. I've not seen any suggestion the place shouldn't be promoted, or that the iidea is to reduce visits or keep it quiet. The whole thing is about not recording problems to allow everyone the experience of a quality venue where you have to make the climbs up yourself.

I was actually on the fence for a bit, thinking about how Howshaw has come on, but I'm back off it now. Will's consumerist language is precisely the opposite of what's being preserved here - one place where climbing can be about the act not the write-up.
]

That seems a bad analogy to me....
A more accurate analogy would be a bolted line where you could magically choose to have the bolts in or out during your ascent.

Yeah that's not helping either. Proper bollocks. I mean I've taken a guidebook to Stanage about twice.

[Bonjoy]

Why is projecting an anthropogenic identity onto a vertical collection of sand and pebbles necessary to deem it worthwhile to climb?

Well indeed, but conversely, why is one person choosing to attach some human story to an inanimate bit of geology mutually exclusive to someone else appreciating it in whatever way they prefer?

[Fiend]

Yeah that's not helping either. Proper bollocks. I mean I've taken a guidebook to Stanage about twice.

You ARE the guidebook to Stanage FFS 

[DAVETHOMAS90]

I think that the way things are documented is really important.

Al's old bouldering guides were written with an element of discovery about them. I think it's rather less black/white than the question of whether things should be documented or not.

We're all on here, talking about the venue. We will end up sharing information. There's no private language.

Personally, I'm more likely to go for a good run up there.

Are folk going there with pads to boulder? There's a reason for asking that question, which is directed more towards the  experiential than the thing.

Going back to Wellsy's comments, it's the reference to something exclusive which seems to be his point.


Edit: my personal feeling is that I would have no problem with access being restricted to certain areas/crags for periods of time in order to allow for some recovery. Not saying that would necessarily work.

[Hoseyb]

As someone who regularly wanders far too far through sheep infested bog to boulder in solitude and obscurity, I still like to know who's been there first (in my case that usually means a visit to messrs Crook and Smith).
Some form of documentation for the would be explorer is really useful, even if its just a Topo on a blog. It means I can Envisage a circuit, plan my day and recruit bods if required.

However, It probably needs no more than that.

As Pantontino lectures myself at great length; there is an equation involving faff versus quality when it comes to guidebook write ups, and the negative weighting on the faff is substantial.

[Bonjoy]

]

That seems a bad analogy to me....
A more accurate analogy would be a bolted line where you could magically choose to have the bolts in or out during your ascent.

Yeah that's not helping either. Proper bollocks. I mean I've taken a guidebook to Stanage about twice.

Okay, an imperfect comparison, but I was riffing off Tim's lazy bolted trad analogy.

[Bonjoy]

Al's old bouldering guides were written with an element of discovery about them.

Hmmm, or maybe there was just less information to document at the time. They were after all the 1st gen of Peak bouldering guides.

Edit: my personal feeling is that I would have no problem with access being restricted to certain areas/crags for periods of time in order to allow for some recovery. Not saying that would necessarily work.

That's a solution to a problem that doesn't exist at Grinah. It has no connection with documentation in this case. Also, how do rocks recover over time? Vegetation may grow back, rocks just erode, either faster or slower.

[DAVETHOMAS90]

I don' know BJ, I get your point about there being less to record perhaps, but I'd suggest that's only part of the issue.

There's a difference between things being shared, and what then turns into a wholescale commoditisation.

There's something about the question "How should Grinah Stones be documented?" which seems contradictory to me. It doesn't feel like our place to decide. None of the problems at Stoney meant any less when they weren't in a book.

[DAVETHOMAS90]

Bonjoy, you're asking a serious question for good reason.

Some thoughts.

Things have changed, haven't they. Documenting things didn't need to have to mean much more than sharing.

Deliberately recording nothing at all - but included in that, is the assumption of trying to stop anything being recorded in the future - seems a difficult position to justify, in terms of the way that's then maintained.
I'm not saying I have a problem with nothing being recorded, I'm just asking "Who can make that decision for everyone else?".

What if a number of really key lines were recorded? You could have 5 key classics across a wide grade range, and give an indication of what other climbing each boulder has to offer.

You could go further, and perhaps not include first ascent details/claims, or perhaps not even give names to problems.

A small number of choice lines, but with some other suggestions could be a way of making the trip up there a more interesting/attractive venture for those not as familiar.

There are decisions about who has access to information. What could be updated and shared, and by whom? Are answers to those questions something that could then be passed on to future custodians?

A bit of folklore could add significant richness - making it feel as though a less arbitrary/exclusive policy was being adopted - without having something that was limited to the extent that other people might want to challenge it in the future.

Hope that's a bit more helpful 

Dave.

[Will Hunt]

The more I think about it the less I'm convinced by the argument that having a guide somewhere means you can't experience a place on your own terms. At places where the signs of traffic are obvious you won't get that, but there are lots of places where there are virtually no signs of traffic. You could have an exploratory day at Sigsworth very easily, for instance.

[dunnyg]

Shame it's shit.

[Will Hunt]

Even grade-obsessed Ben enjoyed a day on sub-7s at Sigsworth. By that yardstick it must be the world's greatest crag.

[Bonjoy]

Bonjoy, you're asking a serious question for good reason.

Some thoughts.

Things have changed, haven't they. Documenting things didn't need to have to mean much more than sharing.

Deliberately recording nothing at all - but included in that, is the assumption of trying to stop anything being recorded in the future - seems a difficult position to justify, in terms of the way that's then maintained.
I'm not saying I have a problem with nothing being recorded, I'm just asking "Who can make that decision for everyone else?".

What if a number of really key lines were recorded? You could have 5 key classics across a wide grade range, and give an indication of what other climbing each boulder has to offer.

You could go further, and perhaps not include first ascent details/claims, or perhaps not even give names to problems.

A small number of choice lines, but with some other suggestions could be a way of making the trip up there a more interesting/attractive venture for those not as familiar.

I'd be comfortable with just writing it up like any other crag, but also i respect other people's wishes and think what you're describing (which is similar to what I'd suggested) is a decent option. I think at least twenty climbs though give the climbing potential there, this would still represent a small fraction of the lines available.

There are decisions about who has access to information. What could be updated and shared, and by whom? Are answers to those questions something that could then be passed on to future custodians?

A bit of folklore could add significant richness - making it feel as though a less arbitrary/exclusive policy was being adopted - without having something that was limited to the extent that other people might want to challenge it in the future.

In some ways it feels like decision by committee on this whole question and talk of custodians etc. is counter to the spirit of what people are trying to preserve. In hindsight it might have been better if I'd not asked the question, but just put out a few nuggets of perhaps anonymised information somewhere obscure online for people to find. But then that feels like a very unilateral breaking of a group code.

[abarro81]

In some ways it feels like decision by committee on this whole question and talk of custodians etc. is counter to the spirit of what people are trying to preserve.

Could always just be done like "secret" French crags - sketchy hand-drawn topos that are hard to understand and where it takes ages to find someone who has one... Can definitely still feel like an adventure compared to normal!