[Nemo]

The winners in the future will have no interest in outdoor climbing. I dont think a lot of them do now. - GME

Which is exactly why a lot of things about competition climbing need to change. 

The only reason that the majority of us still have any interest in this nonsense is that the likes of Ondra and Megos haven't yet completely lost patience in the format and the setting and are still turning up to compete.

If the trajectory continues as it is, that won't continue forever.

Speed climbing should be a completely separate thing.  Has nothing to do with any kind of outdoor climbing.  Sounds like it will be a separate comp at the next Olympics, so hopefully this will be last time we ever need to see anything to do with it.

The lead comps (both in the Olympics and the World cups) are still reasonable, in that the best outdoor climbers can still turn up without too much specific training and win or do very well.

The problem (aside from speed) is in the bouldering setting.  It would be very easy to set problems so that the best outdoor boulderers could win or at least do very well.  To me, that should be the aim.  People shouldn't have to spend all year training specific parkour type problems in order to be able to compete.  If it continues in that vein, then all the best outdoor boulderers will stop competing (most don't bother already).  At which point, most of the interest from the real climbing community evaporates, and you're just left with a bunch of people noone has ever heard of jumping around on a wall.

The argument that it makes it more interesting to watch is nonsense IMO.  If you actually set really hard outdoor style problems on tiny holds, it would be way more interesting to watch.

I've seen the case made by the setters - e.g that if you set crimpy problems then all the climbers find them too easy...  Well set harder crimping problems then.
I think the problem really is that a lot of the setters just aren't good enough to set hard enough outdoor style problems.
Hence they have to resort to trick style jumping around problems in order to bring the level down to something they can actually set.
World cups and Olympic bouldering in future need a complete change of mindset for the setting in order to make it as much like outdoor bouldering as is possible.

Then the likes of Ondra won't need to pretty much spend over 2 years off outdoor climbing in order to compete at the Olympics.  Which is nothing short of tragic for climbing IMO.  Ondra is arguably the best outdoor climber we've ever seen.  He's in his late 20s.  And instead of spending the last 2 years finding and climbing the hardest and best outdoor projects, like others such as Alex Huber were doing at that age - and progressing top end redpointing upwards of 9c.  He's spent 2 years messing around training for speed comps and jumping around parkour style problems on bouldering walls.  It's utterly depressing and completely unnecessary. 

Speed climbing needs to be a completely separate thing and the bouldering setting in all comps needs to fundamentally change, or else comp climbing and outdoor climbing will diverge forever which will be significant loss for both of them.

[gme]

How will it be a significant loss for both? Dont get that at all.

[Nemo]

Comp climbing is currently interesting to actual climbers as the best outdoor climbers are still turning up to compete.
If they don't, a lot of the interest in comp climbing evaporates, so severing the link would be detrimental to comp climbing in terms of the interest in it.

In terms of how severing the link would be a loss for outdoor climbing - I think it's undeniable that the kinds of training techniques etc used in the comp scene have made significant improvements to outdoor climbing standards at the top level - particularly in terms of endurance training, and all the things that go with top level competitions, from physios to food.  Would be a shame to see that connection severed as I think it is very useful to have that input for top level outdoor climbing to continue progressing.

[crimpinainteasy]

If Bassa had won speed how would it have affected everybody else's scores?

[Yossarian]

I totally agree with Nemo. It’s fucking tragic that Ondra has been driven to bouldering in a sauna (is this actually true?) when he could’ve been doing a 10a.

Speed climbing is a silly novelty sport that armchair punters like because it reminds them of Gladiators. The irony is that the best person at doing proper fast climbing - Ondra - is fairly shit at circus fast climbing…

[crimpinainteasy]

My suggestion that there should be separate medals for speed, boulder an lead then a separate combined including all three, not two. This will be like athletics and there will be people who specialize in the combined who are not the best at each individual component, just like decathlon.

With the current scoring format, if you specialise in combined, so you come upper mid table in everything, you will not get a medal!

How is that any different from the decathlon/heptathlon, which i, and many other love. Not one perosn whos ever won that is world leading in an individual event.

Im talking about it as a separate event that people will specialise in with individual medals for each event.

My personal opinion is that speed and boulder have more in common for larger body types with large amounts of strength and power than boulder and lead, and as the sports grow these specializations will become more prevalent. Why should Mickeal Mawem or his like not have a combination event to try and win.

I think you've missed a "not" there gme! teestub is arguing that if you are a solid competitor across all three events, you won't medal in the combined: you're better to be world-beating (or lucky in the case of head-to-head speed) in one, average in another and poor in a third.

I've no issue with there being a combined event, it's just the scoring needs sorting out. Have speed based on time and give people points on their performance relative to the winner of each discipline. At the moment there's no differentiation between smashing the field in an event or just squeaking the win, or conversely losing a tight contest or having a complete stinker. Heptathlon, Decathlon and Modern Pentathlon have solid scoring mechanisms, not multiplication of placings across events.

If you gave points based on performance relative to the winner of each discipline that would surely only punish someone like Jakob where he won but only by a narrow margin. It would essentially put more value on being mediocre across all 3 disciplines than being  really good in any single event.

[Will Hunt]

I used to be of the opinion that comp climbing was crap because it doesn't simulate outdoor climbing but not anymore. It's its own thing and that's fine.

Boulder 1 looked kind of outdoorsy - it was far too easy. Boulder 3 was actually pretty outdoorsy as well - a lot of big moves between small holds; it did nothing to split the field. If Ondra wanted to just do outdoor climbing and get better at that he's welcome to. And we all know that he's the best climber that's ever lived. He obviously likes comps. I don't think he'll be in the next Olympic final - probably not good enough by then.

Bar some minor complaints about things being too hard/easy, I think the setters have nailed it.

[galpinos]

And we all know that he's the best climber that's ever lived.

We all know he's the 6th best climber in 2021 (or 2020.....?)

[galpinos]

Contrary to most post, I like the speed head to head format.

1. Speed finals have been head to heads for years, they've kept the format for the Olynpics. Makes sense.
2. The Olympics is about being the best on the day. It comes round every 4 years and unless you have Bolt style dominance, favourites often crumble under pressure/succumb to injuries etc. If you want to know who the best in any sport is, you look at the World Champs results. The Olympics is "something else", an exciting something else but not to be confused with finding out who's the "real best".
3. Alberto won the speed because he didn't slip. You can call it luck, but if he'd have slipped/false started against any of his competitors, even Ondra, he'd have lost but........ he didn't. He didn't let the occasion get in the way, he just went out and did it. Hats off.

[Ged]

I totally agree with Nemo. It’s fucking tragic that Ondra has been driven to bouldering in a sauna (is this actually true?) when he could’ve been doing a 10a.

Speed climbing is a silly novelty sport that armchair punters like because it reminds them of Gladiators. The irony is that the best person at doing proper fast climbing - Ondra - is fairly shit at circus fast climbing…

What a bullshit attitude. You mean it doesn't resemble a sport tgat you enjoy? It's not supposed to! Interesting how all non climbers think it's the most entertaining discipline. It smacks of serious self righteousness when there's a huge number of people who for them, see Speed as the most important form of climbing. Try telling all those Russians and kazahks that it's a silly sport.

My dad thinks skateboarding is silly, but try telling that to sky brown and all the millions of teenagers around the world right now who are absolutely psyched about it.

I absolutely agree that it shouldn't have been combined with what we consider to be proper climbing, but come on, don't start telling other people what constitutes real sport and what doesn't.

[mr chaz]

1. Speed finals have been head to heads for years, they've kept the format for the Olynpics. Makes sense.

I don't understand this. In what way does head to head make mores sense than time? Except for knowing that there's someone over there who's trying to beat you, I find it hard to believe that whether your opponent is Tamoa, Ondra or whoever has much bearing on your time. Surely you don't change your tactics because they're getting ahead, you just fucking sprint and hope.

[crimpinainteasy]

I don't think he'll be in the next Olympic final - probably not good enough by then.

https://media.giphy.com/media/QU4ewgcmdcsObx9CG7/giphy.gif

Jakob is over halfway to 31 and seems to be stronger than ever. Unless Adam suffers a major injury I think he will still be a major contender in 2024.

[User deactivated.]

1. Speed finals have been head to heads for years, they've kept the format for the Olynpics. Makes sense.

I don't understand this. In what way does head to head make mores sense than time? Except for knowing that there's someone over there who's trying to beat you, I find it hard to believe that whether your opponent is Tamoa, Ondra or whoever has much bearing on your time. Surely you don't change your tactics because they're getting ahead, you just fucking sprint and hope.

Depending on who you are facing could massively affect tactics. For example, Tamoa would likely put in a conservative effort vs ondra to reduce the risk of a mistake whilst still cruising to a victory.

[jstrongman]

Hats off to Lopez, he went to every event he could to gain experience, totally paid off! Ondra and Tomoa both had their chances. The route setters absolutely nailed it across the board men and women's    scoring was crazy but added to the drama, it was a really close final!!  If you forget the multiplier and add up their positions from the three rounds, everyone had 12 with the exception of Tomoa on 11 and Schubert with 13, so maybe Schubert was lucky with bronze and Tomoa most hard done by. I have thoroughly enjoyed it so far and look forward to the women's final tomorrow

[Will Hunt]

Try telling all those Russians and kazahks that it's a silly sport.

Give me their numbers and I'll be on the phone straight away.

[Yossarian]

What a bullshit attitude. You mean it doesn't resemble a sport tgat you enjoy? It's not supposed to! Interesting how all non climbers think it's the most entertaining discipline. It smacks of serious self righteousness when there's a huge number of people who for them, see Speed as the most important form of climbing. Try telling all those Russians and kazahks that it's a silly sport.

You’re right - that was a little excessive. And I did actually quite enjoy it. If you search for climbing on Twitter it seems there are 70% of people saying yo checkout the speed climbing #spiderman this is so wild i can’t put my pants on in the time they climb dat wall, and then a bunch of old misanthropes saying wot olympic climbing, they’ll have hedge trimming next time haha.

Although I like to think they some of the speed specialists might actually concede that it is a tiny bit silly.

[Ged]

Have you seen the reel rock film about speed climbing? Given the size of their arms, I'd make that phone call from a very safe distance.

[Ged]

What a bullshit attitude. You mean it doesn't resemble a sport tgat you enjoy? It's not supposed to! Interesting how all non climbers think it's the most entertaining discipline. It smacks of serious self righteousness when there's a huge number of people who for them, see Speed as the most important form of climbing. Try telling all those Russians and kazahks that it's a silly sport.

You’re right - that was a little excessive. And I did actually quite enjoy it. If you search for climbing on Twitter it seems there are 70% of people saying yo checkout the speed climbing #spiderman this is so wild i can’t put my pants on in the time they climb dat wall, and then a bunch of old misanthropes saying wot olympic climbing, they’ll have hedge trimming next time haha.

Although I like to think they some of the speed specialists might actually concede that it is a tiny bit silly.

Maybe they do. I'm sure all sports people do sometimes. What was dave graham's quote, something like "never think you're that cool when you're just hanging out in the woods getting bitten by bugs".

We, of all obsessive sport types, have very little grounds to tell people their sport is silly.

[gme]

Comp climbing is currently interesting to actual climbers as the best outdoor climbers are still turning up to compete.
If they don't, a lot of the interest in comp climbing evaporates, so severing the link would be detrimental to comp climbing in terms of the interest in it.

Not sure this is true. Whilst yes Ondra, megos and Ghisofi fit the description of outdoor climbers that do comps a larger number are comp climbers who go climbing a bit or perhaps not at all. Tomoa and Janja being the obvious choices. Jacob is a comp climber first as is shauna. The list could go on.

I cant think of one of the women whos an outdoor climber but people still watch the comps.

[gme]

What a bullshit attitude. You mean it doesn't resemble a sport tgat you enjoy? It's not supposed to! Interesting how all non climbers think it's the most entertaining discipline. It smacks of serious self righteousness when there's a huge number of people who for them, see Speed as the most important form of climbing. Try telling all those Russians and kazahks that it's a silly sport.

You’re right - that was a little excessive. And I did actually quite enjoy it. If you search for climbing on Twitter it seems there are 70% of people saying yo checkout the speed climbing #spiderman this is so wild i can’t put my pants on in the time they climb dat wall, and then a bunch of old misanthropes saying wot olympic climbing, they’ll have hedge trimming next time haha.

Although I like to think they some of the speed specialists might actually concede that it is a tiny bit silly.

Maybe they do. I'm sure all sports people do sometimes. What was dave graham's quote, something like "never think you're that cool when you're just hanging out in the woods getting bitten by bugs".

We, of all obsessive sport types, have very little grounds to tell people their sport is silly.

Speed is the only discipline that makes any sense as a sport to a non climber.

I just saw Karate on the TV!!!  Bouldering being a sport its up there with the 100m compared to that.

[Will Hunt]

Speed is the only discipline that makes any sense as a sport to a non climber.

I wish people would stop saying this because it is incredibly stupid and just wrong. Why do people assume that absolutely everyone is so pig shit thick that they can't possibly understand an event that hinges on difficulty as opposed to speed? Haven't we all just watched skateboarding, BMX, diving, and a heap of other disciplines that aren't just about going really fast.

[GraemeA]

I totally agree with Nemo. It’s fucking tragic that Ondra has been driven to bouldering in a sauna (is this actually true?) when he could’ve been doing a 10a.

No one forced Ondra to compete or try and get into the Olympics. It was his choice, none of us know what motivated him to change his mind about trying to win the Olympics.

[gme]

It’s not wrong and definitely not stupid.

People enjoy the skateboarding but don’t get it as a sport. BMX split as some of it is racing, which is far more exciting than the freestyle stuff.

Plus all of them have speed. For the general public Bouldering is a shit watch unfortunately skating, bmx, diving are not.

[Nutty]

If you gave points based on performance relative to the winner of each discipline that would surely only punish someone like Jakob where he won but only by a narrow margin. It would essentially put more value on being mediocre across all 3 disciplines than being  really good in any single event.

Was Jakob's margin small - seemed significantly better than Ondra to me? It'd depend how you assigned points, but as in Lead it gets harder as you go up the wall, a difference of one hold near the top should maybe count for more than a difference of one hold lower down. I'm sure points could be allocated on some sort of exponential/log formula to account for this. Similar with speed, each decrease in time by a hundredth of a second is harder than the last.

[Will Hunt]

It’s not wrong and definitely not stupid.

People enjoy the skateboarding but don’t get it as a sport. BMX split as some of it is racing, which is far more exciting than the freestyle stuff.

Plus all of them have speed. For the general public Bouldering is a shit watch unfortunately skating, bmx, diving are not.

Wait, what's your point now? Do you want people to understand the competition, enjoy it, or to get the sport? What do people not get about skateboarding? I understand that you're scored according to difficulty and execution. And it's also very obvious (not least because the pundits kept banging on about it) that the idea of competetive skateboarding is absorbs anathema to a lot of skateboarders who are fundamentally counter-cultural. What did we not get and how is that relevant to your assertion that "Speed is the only discipline that makes any sense as a sport to a non climber."

I thought the BMX racing was crap. For one it seemed to hinge almost entirely on who got a good start. It also looked like a load of people trying to go fast on a bike that has not been designed to go fast. They looked like those circus elephants who have been trained to ride a tiny bike. However when the Australian launched himself into the air and flipped his bike through a complete rotation before successfully landing I went berserk.

All of them have speed? When do they all line up on their skateboards and see who can go 100m the fastest? When do they see who hit the water going fastest in diving?

Whether people find the bouldering boring or not is neither here nor there if you're arguing about whether people understand it.