[Rob F]

This morning I was changing a lightbulb and rather annoyingly one of the wires snapped whilst I was removing.

I spent over an hour getting more and more frustrated trying to get the little wire out of the socket with various pliers and scissors etc.

I eventually found some tweezers and the wire came out in less than a second...

[Stabbsy]

This morning I was changing a lightbulb and rather annoyingly one of the wires snapped whilst I was removing.

I spent over an hour getting more and more frustrated trying to get the little wire out of the socket with various pliers and scissors etc.

I eventually found some tweezers and the wire came out in less than a second...

What grade did you take for it?

[Will Hunt]

Did John Dunne use a kneebar to clip the chains on Austrian Oak when he did the first ascent?

[tomtom]

How many knee bars does it take to change a light bulb?

[shark]

Did John Dunne use a kneebar to clip the chains on Austrian Oak when he did the first ascent?

He may have done. The belay was up and left before and I gather people did use a kneebar to clip it. Steve Dunning put in the current belay and it was far harder to clip (some dropped the redpoint here) than before until I discovered an unobvious but solid kneebar comfortable enough to be used wearing shorts so no kneed for kneepad.

Kneebars are not a recent invention. Mass produced kneepads with sticky rubber are and provide frictional as  well as pain reducing advantages.

The issues raised pertain primarily to use of kneepads to make moves easier and provide rests which weren’t possible before.

[Will Hunt]

Did John Dunne use a kneebar to clip the chains on Austrian Oak when he did the first ascent?

He may have done. The belay was up and left before and I gather people did use a kneebar to clip it. Steve Dunning put in the current belay and it was far harder to clip (some dropped the redpoint here) than before until I discovered an unobvious but solid kneebar comfortable enough to be used wearing shorts so no kneed for kneepad.

Kneebars are not a recent invention. Mass produced kneepads with sticky rubber are and provide frictional as  well as pain reducing advantages.

The issues raised pertain primarily to use of kneepads to make moves easier and provide rests which weren’t possible before.

So what you're saying is you're now climbing the Oak to a different point to that which was originally intended. Interesting.

[Rob F]

What happened to those cricketers who got found out tampering with the ball???

[tomtom]

What happened to those cricketers who got found out tampering with the ball???

They have glorious careers in the media.

[Sasquatch]

I find the whole question throughly entertaining.  Cams were originally an issue because they made climbs to mush easier and safer.  Bolts were an issue because... Sticky rubber was an issue because....   Boulder pads were an issue because... kneepads are an issue because...   

Kneepads are here.  They're not going away. You can choose to not use kneepads.  You can choose to climb routes without sticky rubber shoes.  You can choose to not clip bolts. You can choose to not use boulder pads.  It's your choice.  But to say kneepads are "off" is just the current version of the old bolt chopping wars.  Thankfully, this is just on the interwebs, and is way less important in the scheme of things...

[gme]

Megos isn’t saying they shouldn’t be used he’s just saying if they make something easier you should be honest and say so which seems fair to me.

I’m old school enough to think that bouldering should be done with an approved sequence never mind all this kneepad bollocks, or you don’t get the full tick. Bouldering is so arbitrary anyway that rules should exist.

[Doylo]

Megos was basically calling Graham, Ondra and Barrows a cunt in that insta post. Graham and Ondra don’t deserve that.

[abarro81]

if they make something easier you should be honest and say so

Well duh. I hope he gets an honorary degree for that new insight.

I’m old school enough to think that bouldering should be done with an approved sequence

In the immortal words of Noble, "If that's rock climbing I'm not interested". Although obvs he was talking about kneebars. Or tall people. Or maybe both.

[teestub]

Bouldering is so arbitrary anyway that rules should exist.

Any half decent boulder problem is no more arbitrary than route climbing. There’s an easy way up around the back you know 😄

[SA Chris]

What happened to those cricketers who got found out tampering with the ball???

You're confusing The Oak with The Ashes.

[Ged]

Megos isn’t saying they shouldn’t be used he’s just saying if they make something easier you should be honest and say so which seems fair to me.

I think he was. To me it sounded like he was saying if a pad wasn't used on the 1st ascent then you shouldn't use one. Which in my opinion is utter, utter bollix.

[abarro81]

What's the bet that Seb B found a 9a+ method on Stoking the Fire, prompting a desperate attempt from Edu Marin to not have to take the lower grade when he does his proj, even though pads were common by 2013 
https://www.instagram.com/p/CJ3ouZmnUpp/?igshid=1xkx0hl7kmv1a
#biggradesforbadbeta

It strikes me more and more that this is mostly an issue with people using grades to represent how impressive an ascent is, but they're not a very good measure of it. For sure it's a more impressive display of ability to solo something barefoot no pads whilst on LSD, or more boringly to climb it in bad conditions, but it doesn't change the grade of the route...

[tomtom]

I saw on IG that Ondra has a new blog post about the Ethics of knee pads etc... not read it but assume it’s relevant to all this FYI etc...

[shark]

Kneepad is, even though more and more widely accepted, still a pretty controversial piece of climbing gear 🤔 I have been quite eager for a while to express my opinion about it and that is why I decided to write a longer article. Actually, I wanted to make just a post, but one paragraph turned into way too long paragraph, and then into a proper article 💪

Kneepads do make some of the climbs easier. It might be seen as unethical, especially on some of the classic climbs, to use them as the first ascent was done without them. On the other hand, some marginal modern kneebars do not really change the grade, they might only just change the style and nature of the climb. Actually, some of the routes might get worse as they might be less consistent.
Check out my thoughts on this 🔥 hot issue on my website, the link in bio.

https://adamondra.com/updates/climbing-ethics

Rock climbing is sport (and much more than that) without referees, and its ethics are not written, not very often all climbers agree about them, and furthermore, they keep evolving. A topic that is very often discussed nowadays is the use of kneebars, or better kneebars with the use of kneepads. Surprisingly, kneepads have been WIDELY used in the climbing scene only for the last couple of years. It is true that there are a few crags like Hueco, Rifle or Jailhouse where locals have been using quite good home-made kneepads for decades, using duct tape to prevent them from moving on their legs. In Europe, you would see a home-made kneepad from time to time, but it was more of something against the pain and not really increasing the friction. My approach for many years had been - climbing in shorts, being gentle in the kneebars for a few climbing days in order to let my skin adapt, the skin really grew harder and I could sustain the pain of making multiple kneebars in one route in the limestone tufa cliffs. Sometimes, I would be sand-papering my knees for days before the trip to be better prepared. This worked really well in First Round First Minute 9b. My old home-made kneepad did not work for that kneebar, I just could not feel it. Bare skin did not stick enough either. So I eventually climbed the route in jeans, using a small piece of wet toilet paper on my skin just before setting off, which made my jeans really stick to the skin and eventually, that made my knee stick to the wall.

Modern kneepads are so good that they are not only comfortable to climb with and you do not bruise your skin - which means knee-baring has never been that much fun. But you can also do kneebars where it was impossible before. That might make some climbs significantly easier. My opinion is that it is just an evolution of climbing and most of us do not consider climbing shoes or chalk bag cheating. It is sad even for me to sometimes see that a certain classic climb can be climbed in a different way with the use of a kneepad, often making it a worse and less homogenous route. But it is something we must accept. Even for me, it was not easy to see Stefano Ghisolfi in Change, using the kneepads in places where it was not possible for me without kneepads, but it is evolution and in this case, fortunately I do not think it changes the grade.

While the kneepads are comfy to climb with, the more often you bring it into the routes, the more often you actually do kneebars and gradually you are getting better in them. It is a skill that must be practised just like crimping or making dynos. On the other hand, it sometimes leads to a situation that doing 30 kneebars in one route is actually not that efficient any more, and you would maybe climb better with less kneebars and resting. With more kneebar skills, I often find a kneebar myself which makes me excited that it is the trick that might help to send the route, but sometimes I find out a few tries later that this particular one is so bad that it does not help at all. And obviously it depends on your kneebar skills. Somebody who is not good in kneebars might prefer to skip a few of them, whereas some other climbers might be very thankful for them.

In case of Perfecto Mundo, all the kneebars are very marginal. If you do not have special taste for kneebars, you will probably never bother using them. I was very hesitant myself about most of them - if they actually help at all or if I would be better off just flowing through the route without them. I think it will be the case of many routes in the future that it will be an individual decision whether to bring a kneepad for some very marginal kneebars or not.

It is true, unfortunately, that the kneepads might make the grading a little more inconsistent. While some kneebars might be impossible for people of short size, there might be the opposite problem as well. At the moment, I do not have any problem at all using the kneepads on my first ascents or in the routes that were put up recently when the kneepads were accessible and available technology. On the other hand, there are some really historical routes like Hubble, world’s first 8c+ or 9a (grade of this route is not the topic of this article) where the use of a kneepad might be seen as questionable, because Ben Moon in 1990 did not know about this technology. And it might be fair to say that the only ascents that count should be done in the same style as Ben’s. Well, but climbing shoes have evolved, ropes have evolved, most climbers do not have that heavy rasta as Ben in 1990! On top of that, it is not that easy to find the line in terms of kneebars. If you only climb in shorts, then it is simple - you use just your bare skin. Once you use long pants, some pants are better for kneebars - jeans are better than other pants, etc. I do believe you might find a textile that might be almost as good as rubber. Where to draw the line then?

I think it is important for professional climbers nowadays not only declaring an ascent, but also the way of sending the route. It is quite obvious in terms of multipitch and alpine ascents to provide details, but it should be more obvious for sport-climbing and bouldering as well. (I mean, once you have a video, that is pretty much enough). Then, it is everybody’s decision to use or not to use a kneepad, use the original method or the new method and so on. On the other hand, I believe professional climbers should try to reflect these facts (kneepad when it wasn’t used for the FA, new beta and others) into the grading even though they only repeat the routes and should not just take the guidebook grade for granted.

[abarro81]

TLDR "downgrade the fuckers, but remember for historic ascents that they used to be harder so the old boys aren't as weak as you think"

[Fiend]

Thanks Barrows that's a useful summary.

But not as useful as Doylo's summary:

[Rob F]

Shark- some rather dirty marginal padded kneebars in that Ondra article. Can you put an edit in your post to warn those of a sensitive nature???

Also can't believe Ondra failed to mention this thread, he kneeds to keep up...