[SA Chris]

I do use the train for the ten minute commute each way nearly every day, which costs me £6.60 return, the only benefit is saving a bit time due to traffic and saving a bit of CO2, I could park just over ten minutes walk to work for free and fuel would cost a fraction if this, I can see why so few people bother.

[bigironhorse]

I think that a consideration here is that it is so easy to get the train to these places. I just arrived in Hull today at 3pm after taking a Nightjet from Vienna at 9pm last night. Approx 20hrs, a lot of which was spent in bed. I think this is comparable or further in distance to switzerland and northern spain.

From all the reading I have done regarding trains vs planes, trains come out on top nearly every time. So I think people could consider taking the train instead of taking short haul flights for these trips.

Edit: just read this back. the example wasn't intended to be preachy or a virtue signalling humble brag. Just wanted to illustrate that it is really quite easy to swap flying for the train for some euro destinations.

A slight caveat to this - I just took the train back yesterday from Seynes to Tübingen (south of Stuttgart). I actually drove there, but the car broke down and we had to get sorted by the ADAC 

The journey was indeed pleasant and straightforward, which the obvious caveat that we couldn't take a load of stuff back which we had to leave in the boot of the car - applies to flights as well though so not really relevant.

The hidden cost? Well, it wasn't hidden at all. The train tickets (which thankfully will be refunded) cost over 400€ one way. Driving in our not particularly efficient turbo petrol Astra cost around 100€ including tolls in France, which made up for around 30€ alone. Booking in advance would make the train moderately cheaper, but we're still talking 350€ one way.

Flying would be cheaper than driving but the idea of flying when I can drive the distance in less than 9 hours seems ridiculous.

I do think a shift in public/business usage could be instigated by improving the cost of train travel. As it stands, driving costs 1/2 for a single person and 1/4 for a couple doing the same journey.

I agree that the booking system is awful and trains are too expensive - I think they would need to be about 50% of the current price to be highly enticing.

I'm surprised your tickets were quite that expensive - french trains must be very costly. I managed Hull to Vienna for around £300 return, booking about one month in advance. But this did involve an interrail pass and two different booking services.

I do use the train for the ten minute commute each way nearly every day, which costs me £6.60 return, the only benefit is saving a bit time due to traffic and saving a bit of CO2, I could park just over ten minutes walk to work for free and fuel would cost a fraction if this, I can see why so few people bother.

Yeah, it is no wonder people opt not to take the train when the situation is like this.

[MischaHY]

I think that a consideration here is that it is so easy to get the train to these places. I just arrived in Hull today at 3pm after taking a Nightjet from Vienna at 9pm last night. Approx 20hrs, a lot of which was spent in bed. I think this is comparable or further in distance to switzerland and northern spain.

From all the reading I have done regarding trains vs planes, trains come out on top nearly every time. So I think people could consider taking the train instead of taking short haul flights for these trips.

Edit: just read this back. the example wasn't intended to be preachy or a virtue signalling humble brag. Just wanted to illustrate that it is really quite easy to swap flying for the train for some euro destinations.

A slight caveat to this - I just took the train back yesterday from Seynes to Tübingen (south of Stuttgart). I actually drove there, but the car broke down and we had to get sorted by the ADAC 

The journey was indeed pleasant and straightforward, which the obvious caveat that we couldn't take a load of stuff back which we had to leave in the boot of the car - applies to flights as well though so not really relevant.

The hidden cost? Well, it wasn't hidden at all. The train tickets (which thankfully will be refunded) cost over 400€ one way. Driving in our not particularly efficient turbo petrol Astra cost around 100€ including tolls in France, which made up for around 30€ alone. Booking in advance would make the train moderately cheaper, but we're still talking 350€ one way.

Flying would be cheaper than driving but the idea of flying when I can drive the distance in less than 9 hours seems ridiculous.

I do think a shift in public/business usage could be instigated by improving the cost of train travel. As it stands, driving costs 1/2 for a single person and 1/4 for a couple doing the same journey.

I agree that the booking system is awful and trains are too expensive - I think they would need to be about 50% of the current price to be highly enticing.

I'm surprised your tickets were quite that expensive - french trains must be very costly. I managed Hull to Vienna for around £300 return, booking about one month in advance. But this did involve an interrail pass and two different booking services.

I do use the train for the ten minute commute each way nearly every day, which costs me £6.60 return, the only benefit is saving a bit time due to traffic and saving a bit of CO2, I could park just over ten minutes walk to work for free and fuel would cost a fraction if this, I can see why so few people bother.

Yeah, it is no wonder people opt not to take the train when the situation is like this.

Just to clarify - that was ~400€ for two people, not one - in case that wasn't clear.

As you said though, still a no-brainer to drive when considering cost.

Honestly - I don't think the revolution to the rail system will come. I suspect electric cars will resolve enough of the carbon guilt that people simply carry on how they are, running on nuclear.

[bigironhorse]

I think that a consideration here is that it is so easy to get the train to these places. I just arrived in Hull today at 3pm after taking a Nightjet from Vienna at 9pm last night. Approx 20hrs, a lot of which was spent in bed. I think this is comparable or further in distance to switzerland and northern spain.

From all the reading I have done regarding trains vs planes, trains come out on top nearly every time. So I think people could consider taking the train instead of taking short haul flights for these trips.

Edit: just read this back. the example wasn't intended to be preachy or a virtue signalling humble brag. Just wanted to illustrate that it is really quite easy to swap flying for the train for some euro destinations.

A slight caveat to this - I just took the train back yesterday from Seynes to Tübingen (south of Stuttgart). I actually drove there, but the car broke down and we had to get sorted by the ADAC 

The journey was indeed pleasant and straightforward, which the obvious caveat that we couldn't take a load of stuff back which we had to leave in the boot of the car - applies to flights as well though so not really relevant.

The hidden cost? Well, it wasn't hidden at all. The train tickets (which thankfully will be refunded) cost over 400€ one way. Driving in our not particularly efficient turbo petrol Astra cost around 100€ including tolls in France, which made up for around 30€ alone. Booking in advance would make the train moderately cheaper, but we're still talking 350€ one way.

Flying would be cheaper than driving but the idea of flying when I can drive the distance in less than 9 hours seems ridiculous.

I do think a shift in public/business usage could be instigated by improving the cost of train travel. As it stands, driving costs 1/2 for a single person and 1/4 for a couple doing the same journey.

I agree that the booking system is awful and trains are too expensive - I think they would need to be about 50% of the current price to be highly enticing.

I'm surprised your tickets were quite that expensive - french trains must be very costly. I managed Hull to Vienna for around £300 return, booking about one month in advance. But this did involve an interrail pass and two different booking services.

I do use the train for the ten minute commute each way nearly every day, which costs me £6.60 return, the only benefit is saving a bit time due to traffic and saving a bit of CO2, I could park just over ten minutes walk to work for free and fuel would cost a fraction if this, I can see why so few people bother.

Yeah, it is no wonder people opt not to take the train when the situation is like this.

Just to clarify - that was ~400€ for two people, not one - in case that wasn't clear.

As you said though, still a no-brainer to drive when considering cost.

Honestly - I don't think the revolution to the rail system will come. I suspect electric cars will resolve enough of the carbon guilt that people simply carry on how they are, running on nuclear.

You are probably right. I think a possible solution would be a totally integrated transport system. No one owns a car, an electric car picks you up and takes you to the station, you take the high speed train close to your destination and then another car takes you the rest of the way.

Or just drive all the way! But having said that, I would probably rather sit on a train for 12 hours than drive a car for 12 hours.

[eastside]

I think that a consideration here is that it is so easy to get the train to these places. I just arrived in Hull today at 3pm after taking a Nightjet from Vienna at 9pm last night. Approx 20hrs, a lot of which was spent in bed. I think this is comparable or further in distance to switzerland and northern spain.

From all the reading I have done regarding trains vs planes, trains come out on top nearly every time. So I think people could consider taking the train instead of taking short haul flights for these trips.

Edit: just read this back. the example wasn't intended to be preachy or a virtue signalling humble brag. Just wanted to illustrate that it is really quite easy to swap flying for the train for some euro destinations.

A slight caveat to this - I just took the train back yesterday from Seynes to Tübingen (south of Stuttgart). I actually drove there, but the car broke down and we had to get sorted by the ADAC 

The journey was indeed pleasant and straightforward, which the obvious caveat that we couldn't take a load of stuff back which we had to leave in the boot of the car - applies to flights as well though so not really relevant.

The hidden cost? Well, it wasn't hidden at all. The train tickets (which thankfully will be refunded) cost over 400€ one way. Driving in our not particularly efficient turbo petrol Astra cost around 100€ including tolls in France, which made up for around 30€ alone. Booking in advance would make the train moderately cheaper, but we're still talking 350€ one way.

Flying would be cheaper than driving but the idea of flying when I can drive the distance in less than 9 hours seems ridiculous.

I do think a shift in public/business usage could be instigated by improving the cost of train travel. As it stands, driving costs 1/2 for a single person and 1/4 for a couple doing the same journey.

I agree that the booking system is awful and trains are too expensive - I think they would need to be about 50% of the current price to be highly enticing.

I'm surprised your tickets were quite that expensive - french trains must be very costly. I managed Hull to Vienna for around £300 return, booking about one month in advance. But this did involve an interrail pass and two different booking services.

I do use the train for the ten minute commute each way nearly every day, which costs me £6.60 return, the only benefit is saving a bit time due to traffic and saving a bit of CO2, I could park just over ten minutes walk to work for free and fuel would cost a fraction if this, I can see why so few people bother.

Yeah, it is no wonder people opt not to take the train when the situation is like this.

Just to clarify - that was ~400€ for two people, not one - in case that wasn't clear.

As you said though, still a no-brainer to drive when considering cost.

Honestly - I don't think the revolution to the rail system will come. I suspect electric cars will resolve enough of the carbon guilt that people simply carry on how they are, running on nuclear.

You are probably right. I think a possible solution would be a totally integrated transport system. No one owns a car, an electric car picks you up and takes you to the station, you take the high speed train close to your destination and then another car takes you the rest of the way.

Or just drive all the way! But having said that, I would probably rather sit on a train for 12 hours than drive a car for 12 hours.

Interestingly though, the co2 emissions from an electric car depend on where the electricity came from in the first place. Here in the US a lot of it still comes from coal, or nuclear which is arguably worse though we have yet to truly face the consequences. Until we truly have renewable energy, the electric car is only a slight improvement.

Listened to a podcast with Elon Musk where he was talking about electric aircraft - now there's a fascinating idea.

[bigironhorse]

I think that a consideration here is that it is so easy to get the train to these places. I just arrived in Hull today at 3pm after taking a Nightjet from Vienna at 9pm last night. Approx 20hrs, a lot of which was spent in bed. I think this is comparable or further in distance to switzerland and northern spain.

From all the reading I have done regarding trains vs planes, trains come out on top nearly every time. So I think people could consider taking the train instead of taking short haul flights for these trips.

Edit: just read this back. the example wasn't intended to be preachy or a virtue signalling humble brag. Just wanted to illustrate that it is really quite easy to swap flying for the train for some euro destinations.

A slight caveat to this - I just took the train back yesterday from Seynes to Tübingen (south of Stuttgart). I actually drove there, but the car broke down and we had to get sorted by the ADAC 

The journey was indeed pleasant and straightforward, which the obvious caveat that we couldn't take a load of stuff back which we had to leave in the boot of the car - applies to flights as well though so not really relevant.

The hidden cost? Well, it wasn't hidden at all. The train tickets (which thankfully will be refunded) cost over 400€ one way. Driving in our not particularly efficient turbo petrol Astra cost around 100€ including tolls in France, which made up for around 30€ alone. Booking in advance would make the train moderately cheaper, but we're still talking 350€ one way.

Flying would be cheaper than driving but the idea of flying when I can drive the distance in less than 9 hours seems ridiculous.

I do think a shift in public/business usage could be instigated by improving the cost of train travel. As it stands, driving costs 1/2 for a single person and 1/4 for a couple doing the same journey.

I agree that the booking system is awful and trains are too expensive - I think they would need to be about 50% of the current price to be highly enticing.

I'm surprised your tickets were quite that expensive - french trains must be very costly. I managed Hull to Vienna for around £300 return, booking about one month in advance. But this did involve an interrail pass and two different booking services.

I do use the train for the ten minute commute each way nearly every day, which costs me £6.60 return, the only benefit is saving a bit time due to traffic and saving a bit of CO2, I could park just over ten minutes walk to work for free and fuel would cost a fraction if this, I can see why so few people bother.

Yeah, it is no wonder people opt not to take the train when the situation is like this.

Just to clarify - that was ~400€ for two people, not one - in case that wasn't clear.

As you said though, still a no-brainer to drive when considering cost.

Honestly - I don't think the revolution to the rail system will come. I suspect electric cars will resolve enough of the carbon guilt that people simply carry on how they are, running on nuclear.

You are probably right. I think a possible solution would be a totally integrated transport system. No one owns a car, an electric car picks you up and takes you to the station, you take the high speed train close to your destination and then another car takes you the rest of the way.

Or just drive all the way! But having said that, I would probably rather sit on a train for 12 hours than drive a car for 12 hours.

Interestingly though, the co2 emissions from an electric car depend on where the electricity came from in the first place. Here in the US a lot of it still comes from coal, or nuclear which is arguably worse though we have yet to truly face the consequences. Until we truly have renewable energy, the electric car is only a slight improvement.

Listened to a podcast with Elon Musk where he was talking about electric aircraft - now there's a fascinating idea.

Yes definitely, I was thinking more in the very long term. I really hope we aren't still burning fossil fuels for power in 100 years!

Low carbon air travel is definitely the ultimate solution, seems like it is way harder than land transport (?) but obviously the only option for very long journeys.

[tomtom]

Importantly with EV’s the emissions are centred around the spot where the electricity is made. This means you can mitigate these emissions )eg on coal fired have scrubbers/co2 capture) or be based on RE eg on a windy day etc...

Tbh the most compelling argument for EV’s from my perspective are to improve air quality in cities/urban areas which in the UK are both very high and illegal. But nothing is really being done about it.

[SA Chris]

I think a possible solution would be a totally integrated transport system. No one owns a car, an electric car picks you up and takes you to the station, you take the high speed train close to your destination and then another car takes you the rest of the way.

I think we'll be teleporting or travelling by jetpack before the UK gets their act together for that.

[gme]

I think a possible solution would be a totally integrated transport system. No one owns a car, an electric car picks you up and takes you to the station, you take the high speed train close to your destination and then another car takes you the rest of the way.

Other than the EV bit, which will come, this already exists if people want to use it. I rarely drive anywhere in UK other than local journeys. Northumberland to Sheffield every week, London a few times a month, Wiltshire and birmingham last week, all using trains and taxis. We also encourage all staff to use trains when possible.

Despite what you would think from the press the rail network is pretty reliable, at least as reliable as driving, and also its much quicker than driving for pretty much every journey i do. On the face of it its expensive, especially as i generally just pay on the day, but i think if you factor in the actual cost of running a vehicle, including devaluation i am not convinced it is as bad as people think when travelling alone. Fill the car with four of you though and it gets seriously more expensive.

I used to drive everywhere doing 30-40 k miles a year. Driving is set as a default with people and they dont look at other options. Train is my default now but it took a bit of reprogramming to get like that.

[Ged]

I'm sure trains are reliable, but they are prohibitively expensive.  Every time I go to Sheffield from Devon to visit family, I look at train tickets way in advance.  Usually around £350 for the round trip for the two of us, rather than a tank of petrol

[gme]

I'm sure trains are reliable, but they are prohibitively expensive.  Every time I go to Sheffield from Devon to visit family, I look at train tickets way in advance.  Usually around £350 for the round trip for the two of us, rather than a tank of petrol

This is what everyone says but if you factor in the true cost of running a car its not as big a difference as you think.

I have no idea where in devon you go so quickly looked at Sheffield to exeter trains booked in advance and you can get two adults for £251.00. If your under 30 you can get a rail card and this comes down to £170.00.

RAC state the true cost per mile ( depreciation, tax, repairs fuel etc) of a petrol car that does 40 mpg is 53p. Sheff to Exeter and return is 500 miles so £265.00.

We look at this all the time at work when we have to calculate what vans/cars true cost to the business is and until you have three people in the vehicle the cost is not much different. One person and its nearly always cheaper by train.

Owning a car anyway is what throws the whole thing out of kilter as many of the costs are fixed even if you dont use it, however its already the case with people in London that owning one is more expensive than just hiring one when needed and many people now dont bother. A car parking permit for a year is often more than 5-6 weeks car hire for holidays etc.

I think a better rail network and an UBER style service with EVs is the future of transport in the UK, and Europe to an extent if your prepared to allow longer travel times. I go to Holland a fair bit with work and am looking at trains but its a 10 hour job rather than 3 to fly inc check in. If i lived in London i would get the train.

[tomtom]

For NL trips don't forget the ferry... I've driven to a couple of meetings in the NL - getting the overnight ferry from Hull - arive nice and fresh in the morning. have the meeting -get the 6pm ferry back. If you go out of holiday seasons its £180-300.... (inc a luxury cabin last time..)

[gme]

For NL trips don't forget the ferry... I've driven to a couple of meetings in the NL - getting the overnight ferry from Hull - arive nice and fresh in the morning. have the meeting -get the 6pm ferry back. If you go out of holiday seasons its £180-300.... (inc a luxury cabin last time..)

I have done this a fair few times from Newcastle both in the car and as a foot passenger. It is cheaper than flying from newcastle as a foot passenger but it turns a trip that can be done in a day to two nights away from the family.

[tomtom]

but it turns a trip that can be done in a day to two nights away from the family.

I know! :D

[gme]

  :lol:Putting my mind back to when I had a young family I have no idea why I didn’t think of it myself.

[cowboyhat]

The fact that nothing we do seems innocent anymore

This is truly the second age of cant.