[Wood FT]

I can understand this might not be popular (and unrelated to the OP) but I think that flying long-haul for a 1-2 week holiday is irresponsible, in this day and age.

Elephant in the room IMO 

[eastside]

I can understand this might not be popular (and unrelated to the OP) but I think that flying long-haul for a 1-2 week holiday is irresponsible, in this day and age.

Elephant in the room IMO 

Does three weeks make it responsible? 

[Wood FT]

I can understand this might not be popular (and unrelated to the OP) but I think that flying long-haul for a 1-2 week holiday is irresponsible, in this day and age.

Elephant in the room IMO 

Does three weeks make it responsible? 

You tell me

[andy popp]

Putting the climate issue aside for now, I'd fly across the Atlantic to go back to HP40.

[petejh]

I can understand this might not be popular (and unrelated to the OP) but I think that flying long-haul for a 1-2 week holiday is irresponsible, in this day and age.

Elephant in the room IMO 

I don't think this is the place, separate thread? Also don't recall you ever commenting about the travel choices of other ukb posters who travel the globe to climb, the list is very long.

[Bradders]

I can understand this might not be popular (and unrelated to the OP) but I think that flying long-haul for a 1-2 week holiday is irresponsible, in this day and age.

Elephant in the room IMO 

An important point. Length of time is irrelevant, as the impact is the same whether you stay for 3 weeks or 3 months.

Surely there are lots of places nearer by that would be just as good?

That said, I think it's quite unfair to ask individuals to "make the difference" by refraining from this activity or that. Climate change is only going to be solved by massive collective change, and literally taking the option of long distance travel away or rationing it, because realistically as long as the option exists and is affordable people will take it because they're selfish. Climbers taking a holiday are the tiniest of drops in the ocean.

[tommytwotone]

Putting the climate issue aside for now, I'd fly across the Atlantic to go back to HP40.

I reckon a visit to eastside's home bouldering facility would be worth the journey as well!

[Wood FT]

I can understand this might not be popular (and unrelated to the OP) but I think that flying long-haul for a 1-2 week holiday is irresponsible, in this day and age.

Elephant in the room IMO 

I don't think this is the place, separate thread? Also don't recall you ever commenting about the travel choices of other ukb posters who travel the globe to climb, the list is very long.

New thread probably better, yes.

Commenting on other UKBers? Probably just not hit the sweet spot of having 3 cans and a bitter jealousy before.

[petejh]

Ha! In Vino Veritas.

[Ged]

Driving 2 hours to Malham is hardly greta thunberg esque though is it?

[Wood FT]

Driving 2 hours to Malham is hardly greta thunberg esque though is it?

No, but it’s not as bad.

[tomtom]

This is useful for basic co2 usage calcs

http://www.aef.org.uk/downloads/Carbon_Footprint_Calculator_including_flights.pdf

Mea culpa: I drive 8-10k miles a year for climbing (I estimate). That’s about the same as one economy class transatlantic flight in CO2 emissions (2 tonnes).

The big shifts will come from policy changes - but politicians act (ultimately) on what people ask for - and if you change your lifestyle choices not only might it help cut emissions but also sway wider changes.

But none of us are carbon teetotal.

[Paul B]

I don't think this is the place, separate thread? Also don't recall you ever commenting about the travel choices of other ukb posters who travel the globe to climb, the list is very long.

  and concisely aware.

I think it's certainly worth another thread as in the first instance I'm surprised there hasn't been more of a backlash against sponsored heroes.

One on FB was commenting on plastic waste somewhere (Thailand perhaps?) on the same day I'd seen a chart showing what people are worrying about (environmental issues) and the actual impact your changes make (with single use plastic coming in significantly further down the list than transatlantic travel). It doesn't come across as very self aware although I avoided pointing that out owing to the huge hypocrisy on my own part.

[shark]

Eastside must think we are a right bunch of dicks - and he’d be right

[eastside]

Eastside must think we are a right bunch of dicks - and he’d be right

On the contrary. Compared to every American climbing forum this place seems quite civilized.

Yeah the carbon argument is for real, I guess I just justify travel because it helps me to tolerate the tedium of daily existence.

[Wood FT]

Eastside must think we are a right bunch of dicks - and he’d be right

Split thread? It’s not dick-like to discuss the issue just not while raining on Eastside’s holiday parade, that’s fair enough.

[Ged]

Driving 2 hours to Malham is hardly greta thunberg esque though is it?

No, but it’s not as bad.

Absolutely, but I think unless you live off grid, grow all your own veg, and don't own a car, it's slightly dodgy ground getting judgy about others. We all need to do loads more, but most of us aren't really willing to do it.

[Offwidth]

I nearly fell down a hidden big hole on one of my Wolfrey trips and rescued a sheep from a hole on another one. It's a lovely place but you need to watch your feet and it's best with a friend.

The UK is a great place to visit for bouldering or trad. Id say April to May best for the longer days, better weather and not too bad conditions. Don't get fixated on the grit though unless the weather is great and you have leather skin.  When we get bad weather in May it tends to involve fast moving frontal systems ...conditions can seem apocalyptic in the morning (so go to the cafe and relax) but by the afternoon it can be sunny and breezy with rain evaporate cooled rock. Its rare to have a whole   14 hours of daylight as a wash-out. It tends to be mid to late summer when it can sometimes seem to rain for weeks without ceasing, with midges wanting to eat you alive in many of the best climbing areas.

Scotland is lovely in late April early May:  no midges, snow on the highest tops (you can nearly always get an easy ice tick on the Ben if that floats your boat) and the scenery in the far NW is out of this world with great varied climbing on mountains, sea stacks and in boulder fields. N Wales is another good visitor base for the variety and weather options, with Gogarth in particular being a pretty unique experience for visiting climbers.

On climate change the big issue is to somehow change government views, and even on the subject of flights the big problem is frequent fliers. I respect and support those doing their bit for the environment themselves but even Caroline Lucas admits those trying to guilt trip people taking one international return trip a year for a holiday or to visit family are being an arse and likely counter-productive.

https://www.greenparty.org.uk/news/2016/10/24/let’s-reduce-demand-for-flying,-not-build-climate-busting-runways/

[Will Hunt]

On the subject of climate change (thread split?), I agree that it's a good thing to "do your bit" by not flying, but the differences that individuals can make by limiting their personal opportunities for travel are limited. Far too much demand and guilt is placed on individuals by other individuals, when it would be far more effective to demand change of government and large industries.


Also. Great Wolfrey is not some sort of booby-trapped lair guarded by the Mares of Diomedes. It's a gritstone crag like many others. If you look at a problem it should not be beyond the wit of man to determine whether it is suitable for one person and two pads. If you find such a problem, simply move on to one of the many other suitable problems 
Are we climbers or D of E participants, ffs?

[Wood FT]

Fair points. Not the right approach. Do what you can individually whilst pushing for policy change.

[SA Chris]

Yeah the carbon argument is for real, I guess I just justify travel because it helps me to tolerate the tedium of daily existence.

According to the PoTUS  there isn't even a problem.

Part of the joy of climbing is experiencing new places, cultures and people and if we are sensible about it, there are worse environmental crimes committed on a daily basis.

Yes, we are all culpable to some extent, but nothing compared to big industry, professional sports (consider the footprint of the WSL World Surf Tour) or businessmen who fly across the Atlantic for a one hour meeting.

[reeve]

Driving 2 hours to Malham is hardly greta thunberg esque though is it?

No, but it’s not as bad.

Absolutely, but I think unless you live off grid, grow all your own veg, and don't own a car, it's slightly dodgy ground getting judgy about others. We all need to do loads more, but most of us aren't really willing to do it.

Whilst Wood FT doesn't need me to defend him on his behalf, nothing he has said has come across as overtly judgy. I don't think people should be put off from raising a fair question because they are not a saint - to do so is a rather black and white way of seeing the issue. By that logic, I shouldn't be allowed to laugh at the Bring Out Your Dabs thread because when I did Raindogs I had the second bolt pre-clipped.

Not purely a comment directed at you Ged but also for others on the thread, personally I think that the whole "you can't expect individuals to make changes that will have a minuscule impact - the change needs to be made by government / industry etc.." is a neat way of deflecting responsibility from the things that are within our direct control.

Definitely time for a thread-split 

[tomtom]

I think flying is very much one thing where personal choice can make a difference. If 10% of UK flyers make up 50% of the flights taken (and suspect this is reflected in Europe/N America) then a comparatively small part of the population can make a big difference.

https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2019/sep/25/1-of-english-residents-take-one-fifth-of-overseas-flights-survey-shows

In Academia (my game) people still fly around for conferences/meetings etc.. but this has definitely slowed down. My European colleagues will now readily take the train instead of previously flying and are encouraged to do so by their employers. On a personal note MrsTT was somewhat shocked when I declined joining her (and our son) for a long weekend to see family in NYC - for emissions reasons.

I’ll be taking 2 short haul flights for work this year - and that’ll be it. This may still sound a lot to some and one could be a long train trip (hard with family commitments) - but in 2003 (a bad year) I had >10 flights inc US, NZ and Australia. I do what I reasonably can. 

[owensum]

I know a Boulder-based semi-pro climber (no names) who was taking weekend flights every weekend to go to Red Rocks (Vegas) just to work a single bouldering project. I found this pretty shocking, and I definitely agree this is a conversation that needs to be more loudly heard in the US climbing community.

[petejh]

Whilst Wood FT doesn't need me to defend him on his behalf, nothing he has said has come across as overtly judgy. I don't think people should be put off from raising a fair question because they are not a saint - to do so is a rather black and white way of seeing the issue. By that logic, I shouldn't be allowed to laugh at the Bring Out Your Dabs thread because when I did Raindogs I had the second bolt pre-clipped.

I found it pretty hypocritical and a bit cliquish to make the CO2 comment for that post, by a new poster from the US who none of us know personally, Andy. The same climate comment could have been be dropped in countless other posts and I think it generally isn't, for fear of offending someone we might know.
 
From a quick glance at the 'abroad' thread, in the last 12 months there are posts by UKB'ers flying to China, Brazil, South Africa, the US, SE Asia, and too many European destinations to mention. Add to that countless generally positive comments about sponsored climbers flying all over world to climb and instagramming about it.

Where's the bar for dropping the 'CO2 comment' on someone's post about travelling to climb? Font? South of France? Greece? South Africa? US?

It's a dumb question because you don't know people's circumstances. Does the person eat meat or are they vegan and eat locally-produced; travel often or hardly ever; live efficiently and off-grid or in a leaky old big house.
And the real elephant in the room,  the biggest emitters by far: do they have children? I could fly trans-Atlantic once per year for the next 20 years, and all other thigns being equal I'd emit massively less than an average household with two kids. I'm not anti-kids, I'm anti-people with a skewed sense of perspective.
https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2017/jul/12/want-to-fight-climate-change-have-fewer-children


How would it be viewed if someone dropped the 'CO2 - is it worth it?' comment on the next post about a newborn on the 'New Wad on the Scene' thread. Some poor sod celebrating their new addition to the world gets the 'is little Johny worth all the damaging effect his extra consumption is going to have the climate' line...
But it's socially acceptable to raise the same query about someone's holiday and who you have no other information about.