[JamieG]

Well I definitely might be wrong. Maybe I just don’t particularly like tops off, and am trying to justify it with a diversity argument.

But my main objection was really to the whole ‘like it or lump it’ argument, which ever way it goes.

[Will Hunt]

It might actually help to have a contributor who is actually offended by topless men in the climbing wall come forward and say why they find it offensive. Did that happen and I missed it?

I don't feel particularly strongly either way, but I suspect that there is a certain amount of mixing up of offensive apparel (or lack thereof) and offensive/intimidating people.

I can understand that a bunch of shirtless dudebros posing and flexing and braying and selfie-ing might be off putting in the wall - but they'd be just as off-putting if they were fully clothed.

I wear a t-shirt or vest for 99% of my time in the wall, but should I have the misfortune to be at the wall on a very hot night where it's just unbearably hot then I might take my t-shirt off. My upper body is weedy, pasty, scrawny, and spotty. Nobody is going to be sexually excited by it  I'm certainly not going to be acting in a way as to draw attention to the fact that I'm topless, I'm just going about my business trying to keep cool. If somebody tells me to cover up is that not what people call body shaming now?

[tomtom]

I've not posted for a while, but noticed a couple of posts asked me to expand...

So, sometimes I feel uncomfortable at the wall when there are people climbing topless. I don't know why - sometimes it doesnt bother me sometimes it does. Judging by a couple of other posts on here I'm not alone, but am not claiming to be in any sort of majority or minority.

I don't feel strongly to tell people to put their shirts on - as I wouldnt want to impede whatever they are doing - I can see why some people may choose to do that. But sometimes it makes me feel uncomfortable.

I would also be rather disappointed if people were tops off at the wall with no sensitivity that other people might not like it. To me thats just basic self awareness - I would like to think that most people have that.

So my rambling point is - its fair enough that people want to climb at walls without a top on. But its also fair enough that sometimes that might make some people (including me on occiasion) feel uncomfortable. Why shouldn't I feel like that? Its perfectly normal to like some things and not others? So maybe just be a bit self aware that not everyone might like it.

BTW, I have a colleague at work who hates the sight of bare feet (the tops not the bottom). If you walk around in sandals they squirm away to the other side of the corridor. Knowing this - I don't wear sandals/flipflops at work - to me thats just a common courtesy to be sensitive to their issue (even if it might seem a bit daft - its not the end to not wear sandals...). Of course if you don't know this then what can you do... but if you do know it, would it be nice/polite/pleasant to wear sandals in front of them whatever?

[abarro81]

But my main objection was really to the whole ‘like it or lump it’ argument, which ever way it goes.

But wont we always end up with that?
If you say tops off allowed then those offended/intimidated by it have to like it or lump it...
If you say no tops off then those who think that's a crap rule have to like it or lump it...

[Yossarian]

All young people watch Love Island. In Love Island everyone has their top off. Therefore it’s quite reasonable to predict that in 10 years time top-wearers will be in the minority...

[Oldmanmatt]

In fact, I just reread your post and I'm not even entirely sure which side you're attacking?

I’d suggest a further reading then. Because I’m not in a bad mood. You have come across to me as a rather selfish person, in the way you wrote your posts, who tried to imply that segregation was not something implicitly evil. You did say yourself that what you wrote might seem selfish. I was just agreeing with you. 😉
I disagreed with that position and asked if that was, perhaps, not how you meant it to sound? Because you had earlier made your feelings about “diversity” plain.
So, either we are defining “diversity” differently or there is a strong repulsion on my part, to the idea of excluding people, based on some arbitrary criteria.
Please try to remember I’m not trying to be anything more than humorous and gently mocking. Teasing if you will. I don’t truly believe you to be some bigoted tosser, I just think words are more important than people realise.

I also think history is replete with rather glaring evidence of segregation causing “tension” and that petty segregation is as misleadingly benign as an acorn in a fertile field.
Strike the acorn.
Insert “first shoot of Japanese Knot weed”.

I also think, the entire argument is specious. Since it really has no more validity than saying “I don’t like green trousers”.
So, attacking the argument, more than any particular poster.
Where to draw the line?
A couple of plasters, covering nipples?
If someone has a particularly hairy back/chest/belly, is a running vest insufficient?
What about a boobtube for the middle aged men and lycra sports bras for the younger lads? 
I know a lot of people who find Wolf t-shirts vomit inducingly hard to tolerate.

Live and let live.

As for the “acceptable” / “antisocial” divide, if we have a significant number of adults saying they can’t work that out, if they’ve been raised within this society; then we’re fucked, really.

Seems we’re close to that point, certainly in the House of Commons and politics in general...

[abarro81]

Your new post makes it seem to me that you're not sure which side you're attacking either... since this

Where to draw the line?
A couple of plasters, covering nipples?
If someone has a particularly hairy back/chest/belly, is a running vest insufficient?
What about a boobtube for the middle aged men and lycra sports bras for the younger lads? 
I know a lot of people who find Wolf t-shirts vomit inducingly hard to tolerate.

Live and let live.

implies that you agree with me, but the rest of your post implies that you don't.

I still don't get where you get the shit about people wanting to exclude people from..? It's only a question of some saying that tops off is more inclusive and others saying they aren't that fussed about being pro-actively inclusive by modifying behaviour which they don't want to modify. No is advocating for proactive exclusion (apart from of topless people who refuse to put tops on, like me, though you could argue it's not proactive as I have a choice there).

in the way you wrote your posts, who tried to imply that segregation was not something implicitly evil.

It's not immediately apparent to me that self-chosen segregation is implicitly evil, though it strikes me - from my aforementioned knowledge base of bugger all in these matters - as a bad idea. But that's really a topic for another day perhaps.

I think you might be misreading my post earlier - does it help if I alter the punctuation to
"I guess I can buy the argument that once you have a diverse population it's good for hobbies/activities to be diverse to avoid segregation which, I presume (based on no evidence), is more likely to lead to tensions..." - my point being that my presumption (which fits with yours) is not based on a soundly reasoned or evidenced position.

Alternatively, can someone explain what Matt is on about, because everything else on this thread makes sense to me apart from those two posts...

[tim palmer]

Its a bugger to find research info online that is public viewable but here is one:

https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&source=web&rct=j&url=https://pdfs.semanticscholar.org/2555/17b63b1c769a2173b61af91cd9e2ca763949.pdf&ved=2ahUKEwi02c7i5s3jAhUqQxUIHSi0DfUQFjAAegQIAhAB&usg=AOvVaw32aJnmknQrsJQSWGPqLyrR


Some top end PCM stuff:

https://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/full/10.1002/jst.26

I am not sure this literature really addresses the question as it is all comparison between different clothing types

[tim palmer]

 As regards the inclusivity aspects of tops off, it seems (just from personal experience) that the American climbing scene is a bit more balanced in terms of gender, do walls operate differently on that side of the pond? 

[abarro81]

I just assume that all US walls have a topless guy with a volume in each hand shouting BRING THE RUCKUS at the entrance to the wall 24/7... but I admit I may be wrong on that 

[tim palmer]

I just assume that all US walls have a topless guy with a volume in each hand shouting BRING THE RUCKUS at the entrance to the wall 24/7... but I admit I may be wrong on that 

That what I thought too but I didn't want to seem presumptuous.

[Offwidth]

Its a bugger to find research info online that is public viewable but here is one:

https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&source=web&rct=j&url=https://pdfs.semanticscholar.org/2555/17b63b1c769a2173b61af91cd9e2ca763949.pdf&ved=2ahUKEwi02c7i5s3jAhUqQxUIHSi0DfUQFjAAegQIAhAB&usg=AOvVaw32aJnmknQrsJQSWGPqLyrR


Some top end PCM stuff:

https://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/full/10.1002/jst.26

I am not sure this literature really addresses the question as it is all comparison between different clothing types

You need to read the last line of the abstact again and the related content. Its just one example that I could find that was viewable in public.

My basic argument was that Fiend's certainty on the subject was unjustified and indicates to me his bias would likely override any real differences (I'd love to get him in a lab be proved wrong and see him say sorry 'Fonz style'). Whereas  I agree with him on that highly flawed academic paper on climbing chalk utility.  He also makes the point everyone is a little different and yet ignores the fact he is a bit of a statistical outlier in sweat terms. Its good fun to face his rhetoric though. I'm broadly with Matt on the other stuff (except maybe I'm surprised on willingness of so many to tolerate dripping sweat making walls smell of urea), with the proviso that my experience with social conservatives (those most likely to feel uncomfortable in our social liberal culture) is they tend to be polite in such situations and complain most when around those with similar views. Diversity in the walls I visit most seems to be OK and improving except most obviously within the subset of the several million UK muslims (5% overall and well into the tens of percent in some midlands and northern cities).

[Oldmanmatt]

All young people watch Love Island. In Love Island everyone has their top off. Therefore it’s quite reasonable to predict that in 10 years time top-wearers will be in the minority...

This might be true, though if my teenagers are anything to go by, they don’t watch TV at all and the Love Island viewers are mainly the mums I meet on the school run with younger two. There is a palpable eye rolling amongst the (relatively few) dads on the run, when the subject is raised in the playground...

Edit:

Bollocks, ok, one more time then:

Difference of opinion:

Me: Diversity is important.

Agreement:

Tops on off debate is a storm in a teacup (read: difference between personal offence (TT’s barefooted Phobia Friend and religious convictions and dislike of bodyhair etc) and genuinely offensive and antisocial behaviour (pick one: pulling booger’s from your nose and wiping them on the mats? Publicly admitting to listening to Drill rap for pleasure?). I like having my top off, I’ve not heard a convincing opposing view point, from my perspective.

Reason for contention?

I guess I was using “you” in the post to include Mr Chaz with Mr Abarro81; who, in fact was a little more strident, against Barrow’s ambivalence.

Obscure reference:

Beware petty segregation, lest it allow greater injustice to bloom. Something about “all evil needs to flourish” and “good men do nothing” blah blah blah, or something.
I love/hate everyone equally and will hug/punch anyone without prejudice or favour.

[tomtom]

All young people watch Love Island. In Love Island everyone has their top off. Therefore it’s quite reasonable to predict that in 10 years time top-wearers will be in the minority...

This might be true, though if my teenagers are anything to go by, they don’t watch TV at all and the Love Island viewers are mainly the mums I meet on the school run with younger two. There is a palpable eye rolling amongst the (relatively few) dads on the run, when the subject is raised in the playground...

And favourite with my 80 yo neighbours given I can usually tell what they watch as they listen so loud 😃

[duncan]

Official BMC guidance: a vest is fine as long as it matches your skin.

[abarro81]

You need to read the last line of the abstact again and the related content. Its just one example that I could find that was viewable in public.

Last line of abstract refers to comparison of C1/C2 with C3 i.e. different clothing types not vs naked body

[petejh]

According to Boris Johnston all the doomsters, gloomsters and people betting against Britain are going to lose their shirts. A bit uninclusive to those like TomTom I thought.

[tomtom]

According to Boris Johnston all the doomsters, gloomsters and people betting against Britain are going to lose their shirts. A bit uninclusive to those like TomTom I thought.

Ha I am reassured that generally nothing but lies comes from his gob.

And I’m avoiding listening to his voice.

[Nibile]

You need to read the last line of the abstact again and the related content. Its just one example that I could find that was viewable in public.

Last line of abstract refers to comparison of C1/C2 with C3 i.e. different clothing types not vs naked body

Indeed.
The study shows that professional clothing works better than "common polyester clothing".

[tim palmer]

You need to read the last line of the abstact again and the related content. Its just one example that I could find that was viewable in public.

Last line of abstract refers to comparison of C1/C2 with C3 i.e. different clothing types not vs naked body

Indeed.
The study shows that professional clothing works better than "common polyester clothing".

As above, plus I skimmed the methods

[reeve]

Its a bugger to find research info online that is public viewable but here is one:

https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&source=web&rct=j&url=https://pdfs.semanticscholar.org/2555/17b63b1c769a2173b61af91cd9e2ca763949.pdf&ved=2ahUKEwi02c7i5s3jAhUqQxUIHSi0DfUQFjAAegQIAhAB&usg=AOvVaw32aJnmknQrsJQSWGPqLyrR


Some top end PCM stuff:

https://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/full/10.1002/jst.26

I am not sure this literature really addresses the question as it is all comparison between different clothing types

You need to read the last line of the abstact again and the related content. Its just one example that I could find that was viewable in public.

As Barrows and Tim have said (edit: and Nibile since I started writing this post), that first piece of research only compared types of clothing against the control condition of a 'regular polo shirt'. So unless Fiend is strutting around in his finest Ralph Lauren polo I don't think this paper offers any useful advice.
The second link is a conceptual article but still doesn't answer the question as far as I can see, and the third is trying to sell me a fabric called 'hydro freeze X technology'. (as an aside, this ridiculous name reminded me of that fabric which the Works sold for a while - Accapi nexus - anyone else remember that?)

My basic argument was that Fiend's certainty on the subject was unjustified and indicates to me his bias would likely override any real differences (I'd love to get him in a lab be proved wrong and see him say sorry 'Fonz style').
He also makes the point everyone is a little different and yet ignores the fact he is a bit of a statistical outlier in sweat terms. Its good fun to face his rhetoric though. I'm broadly with Matt on the other stuff (except maybe I'm surprised on willingness of so many to tolerate dripping sweat making walls smell of urea)

In 25 years of going to indoor walls I can't recall having ever seen sweat dripping onto the mats, nor been that disgusted at a general smell of sweat (aside from the odd person but I don't think that would be solved by making them wear a t-shirt). Maybe that makes me the outlier. Or maybe it's you!

[Doylo]

Get your tits out for the lads, lads. But if you stink it’s time to leave.

[Offwidth]

I apologise I was indeed misreading that particular paper. Also looking a bit more tbh I've also found a few other articles from some sports scientists that say skin is always best (albeit none linked to any data). I'll park my side until I have some better info.

[reeve]

Aside from whether an extra t-shirt makes you warmer or cooler, I find it really quite interesting about shirts on or off at the wall because I think it taps onto a lot of different social attitudes.

When I first started climbing walls were essentially indoor crags, so they were treated as such. Now they are probably better classified as a leisure facility, with far greater diversity of customers. I suspect that attitudes to shirt-wearing are reflected in this distinction. For example, I would be very surprised if anyone in the anti-shirtless camp would extend that attitude to people climbing at say the schoolroom, which is only visited by other very keen climbers (and so is more towards the indoor-crag environment, socially at least).

Personally, I have noticed myself feeling more self-conscious climbing topless at a wall if there are a load of not-outdoor-or-proper-climbers around, compared with how I would feel at say the school room or the foundry (although the foundry would vary depending on if there was a birthday party or whatever going on). However, I don't think that its sensible to always pander to people's perceived expectations, so I resist the temptation to do so. Nor do I think that climbing shirtless in front of those who may not approve means I lack empathy or am uncaring (as has been suggested earlier in the thread). No more so than they would be uncaring towards my level of physical discomfort if they were to ask me to put a shirt on.

[petejh]

edit, doesn't matter!