[GraemeA]

Indoor climbing training facilities! And ban anyone who uses them in their own right, rather than as a means to an end for outdoor climbing.

If we did this I suspect we would have to substantially increase prices :-)

[tomtom]

Indoor climbing training facilities! And ban anyone who uses them in their own right, rather than as a means to an end for outdoor climbing.

If we did this I suspect we would have to substantially increase prices :-)

But think of the savings as you wouldnt have to bother cleaning...

if you already do.... :D

[teestub]

Since I started wearing baggy tee shirts (and running shorts) a few years back.

[Offwidth]

Since I started wearing baggy tee shirts (and running shorts) a few years back I now find it more uncomfortable being topless during a sweaty session. The sticky, topless, skin on skin action usually makes me feel far sweatier than the additional layer of a loose tee.

I have no problem visually with tops off at a wall but some other wall users do and owners need to think about the balance in that, especially in terms of improving diversity. When there are tops-off en masse indoors, especially in weather like we have now, it can be disgusting at times as it can make the place stink (albeit often the deodorant deterrent  is worse in my view) : some just don't realise they need a shower first before climbing (to be kind to other users) and because sweat is always dripping onto the mats and festering, instead of being soaked up in clothing (and most of the stink removed later in their washing machine) .

I do have a weird vivid memory of the first time someone asked me "who is that tosser ?" at a wall ....an alliterative tribute to an ex UKB regular who was defo tops-off posing.

There are quite a few sport scientists who think the right clothing can really improve evaporative sweat cooling in hot weather (more so than bare skin).... so when Fiend insists that climbing topless works in keeping the boulderer cooler he is wrong ... its a complicated story as a minimum and that it works for him is probably more a placebo effect  (and/or having the wrong clothing).

[Fiend]

Terribly sorry Offwidth but I might go on decades of actual personal experience and reality of wearing t-shirts and vests of varying skimpiness and bare skin where needed and not some hypothetical thoughts of a few sports scientists who MIGHT think this that or the fucking other. FWIW I didn't spend hours trawling the internet to buy Napalm Death, Cattle Decapitation, Devourment and Gorgoroth vests for nothing and always start my session with a vest on until I take it off if - invariably - needed. And no I'm not going to spend hundreds of quid on a fucking Arcteryx ultra-wicking hyper-light absorvative base-layer vest so I can look like even more of a bellend.

As for other users getting visually offended I refer to my blog post above to the vast amount of grips they need to get. FWIW sweating into my clothing is definitely smellier than sweating with less clothing on unless sports scientists are going to pull some mights and maybes out of their arses about that too. Talking of arses any naturally manly smells would be completely overwhelmed by what comes out of mine so the point is moot anyway.

[Will Hunt]

I don't understand the thing about not flashing things that other people are working on. If there's people trying a blue or a black or whatever at the depot and I want to climb it because I'm warming up and it looks like a good problem then why shouldn't I nip in while nobody's on it and climb it?

If I'm trying a yellow or a purple and somebody flashes it then that's fine by me. They're better than me.

I suspect it says more about the insecurity of them than it says about me.

[andyh]

Terribly sorry Offwidth but I might go on decades of actual personal experience and reality of wearing t-shirts and vests of varying skimpiness and bare skin where needed and not some hypothetical thoughts of a few sports scientists who MIGHT think this that or the fucking other.

"People in this country have had enough of experts" 

[reeve]

There are quite a few sport scientists who think the right clothing can really improve evaporative sweat cooling in hot weather (more so than bare skin)....

I find this so hard to believe - it goes completely against common sense that wearing an extra layer (essentially a barrier) could increase how fast your sweat evaporates. I even spent the last fifteen minutes on google scholar but couldn't find anything remotely informative. Care to link to anything?

[Fiend]

"People in this country have had enough of experts" 

Sorry, it just reeked of that UKC style nonsense where someone produces a link to an obscure scientific paper apparently proving that "chalked hands don't offer any better friction than wet hands" and when you trawl through the gobbledegook inside it's all done in strict lab conditions with climbers who have been inbred over generations to not have sweat glands and then have their fingers bathed in bleach before the test which involves holding arbitrary angles on holds made out of marble, glass, or cheesegraters, all taken place in a vacuum and has about as much relevance to the real world as gardin's original preening instatwats have to real climbing.

[Oldmanmatt]

"People in this country have had enough of experts" 

Sorry, it just reeked of that UKC style nonsense where someone produces a link to an obscure scientific paper apparently proving that "chalked hands don't offer any better friction than wet hands" and when you trawl through the gobbledegook inside it's all done in strict lab conditions with climbers who have been inbred over generations to not have sweat glands and then have their fingers bathed in bleach before the test which involves holding arbitrary angles on holds made out of marble, glass, or cheesegraters, all taken place in a vacuum and has about as much relevance to the real world as gardin's original preening instatwats have to real climbing.

F&#k me, you barsteward!

Me and the team (Etienne and Alan) have been working on those protocols for years! They were secret, for frog’s sakke!
Last time we invite you as test subject, and you can return the Cheese-grater you borrowed too.

[Ged]

As for other users getting visually offended I refer to my blog post above to the vast amount of grips they need to get.

I'm not sure that writing a blog post about it is going to suddenly make people not feel uncomfortable about it.

Do you genuinely not give a shit about that?  I find it hard to grasp that anyone would really not give a shit that they are making people feel uncomfortable.  It's all very well saying that you've spoken to several people at the wall who didnt seem to mind you climbing without a t shirt, but surely it's more about the people who you didn't speak to, who didn't want to speak to you?

In  the interests of getting more of an equal gender balance in a sport that is traditionally a bit of a sausage fest, I think walls are totally doing the right thing by asking you to wear a top.  And at the end of the day, if you don't like their rules, don't use their facilities.

Anyway, just think of all the extra gains you're making by the 0.000005% increase intensity you experience by having a sweatier body.

[Plattsy]

You can put me in the most advanced scientific shirt/vest/crop top known or unknown to man and in this weather I'll have it saturated and dripping with sweat in no time.

My body is beautiful and if my beauty offends then I'm offensively beautiful. 

[Will Hunt]

Can everyone stop body shaming Fiend, please? I think he should be applauded for defying society's expectation of him to cover up.

[bigironhorse]

As for other users getting visually offended I refer to my blog post above to the vast amount of grips they need to get.

I'm not sure that writing a blog post about it is going to suddenly make people not feel uncomfortable about it.

Do you genuinely not give a shit about that?  I find it hard to grasp that anyone would really not give a shit that they are making people feel uncomfortable.  It's all very well saying that you've spoken to several people at the wall who didnt seem to mind you climbing without a t shirt, but surely it's more about the people who you didn't speak to, who didn't want to speak to you?

In  the interests of getting more of an equal gender balance in a sport that is traditionally a bit of a sausage fest, I think walls are totally doing the right thing by asking you to wear a top.  And at the end of the day, if you don't like their rules, don't use their facilities.

Anyway, just think of all the extra gains you're making by the 0.000005% increase intensity you experience by having a sweatier body.

I like climbing shirtless, though usually only do it when the wall is quiet.

Does it acctually make people uncomfortable? (other than TT - why does it make you feel uncomfortable btw?)

 I mainly climb at the works and would say that there is never more than 5% of people there shirtless, and don't think I have ever noticed anyone posing or showing off.

I can understand people being put off by a bunch of nobhead posers, but can't understand how someone minding there own business without a shirt on could be seen as offensive.

[BuzyG]

Another hillareous thread. Thank you folks.  On the top less than thing.  I'm 57 and if I'm too hot during exercise out doors I go top less.  Yes done that climbing mountains in December.  As many have said, it is simply more efficient than being too hot.  Did that just last evening on a 6 mile jog around the clock hills and lanes.  As for indoors, well modesty gets me there.  Don't want some poor wee lass chucking her guts up at the sight of my wrinkled old skin, so the baggy T shirt stays on.  Perfectly Happy with any one else. 

As for the music question.  I better keep classic FM to myself. 

[petejh]

Unacceptable wall behaviour - people not washing their hands after using the toilet and then spreading their germs all over the holds.. drives my OCD side nuts, although probably no worse than handling loose change 


Tops off - mixed feelings on this. When it's boiling like now then it's a no-brainer to go tops off. When it's mid-winter and there's that one guy it's spot the dickhead.

The most unacceptable behaviour is walls charging £9-10. License to print money. Bet Matt's house has taps made of Rhodium.

[Plattsy]

The most unacceptable behaviour is walls charging £9-10. License to print money. Bet Matt's house has taps made of Rhodium.

To paraphrase a classic post....
Matt's house is a diamond mansion on the moon and he drinks a gallon of Cristal every hour from those taps (which he leaves running), pausing only to eat £50 note sandwiches.

[Oldmanmatt]

Unacceptable wall behaviour - people not washing their hands after using the toilet and then spreading their germs all over the holds.. drives my OCD side nuts, although probably no worse than handling loose change 


Tops off - mixed feelings on this. When it's boiling like now then it's a no-brainer to go tops off. When it's mid-winter and there's that one guy it's spot the dickhead.

The most unacceptable behaviour is walls charging £9-10. License to print money. Bet Matt's house has taps made of Rhodium.

I wasn’t sure whether to reply to Pete’s crack, but actually it might be important. Because anyone thinking of opening a small wall should know what they’re getting in  to. You don’t do this to get rich, if you are not in a major city.

We’re now well into our 7th year as a wall. We have made a loss every year since opening, and not “for tax purposes”. Last month we had to add capital, to cover a cash flow shortfall, caused by overdue invoices (and music license fees trebling this year). We only employ two part time staff. Polly and I rely on outside income, and neither of us draw a salary from the business. We take £400 a month in “Directors loan repayment” on our original investment (we didn’t borrow anything originally, so no loans to service).
I cover all sickness, holiday, extra staff needs and work 40hrs of shifts there per week (usually I put in 55-60hrs a week). I clean toilets, vacuum the building, wash windows, do the accounting, pay bills etc etc etc.
This month, we have had 5 days where we took no money at all and a further 6 where the takings didn’t cover wages, let alone wages and overheads. Summer sucks.
To add insult, now we’re competing against Venture capital, Corporate outfits, that are happy to run two years at a loss to undercut any local independents into liquidation.

We knew this before opening. I’ve been involved in building and running walls since the early 90’s. I’d hoped for a little more income and stronger customer base (because we had hopes of the local college becoming a fully fledged Uni) etc, but we’re a long way from our “worst case” planning. Our’s was a conscious decision to step off the treadmill and be free of our previous lives. We wanted something for both us and the kids to use and part of our lack of profit stems from constantly rebuilding, improving and generally adding to the place. A huge amount of my time is spent repairing things, from toilets to exercise machines and dishwashers.
But...

What we have is a hugely rewarding life, that is so much more fulfilling than my previous “Executive privilege” that was actually a gilded, small, cage.   It’s worth it.

[sdm]

Unacceptable wall behaviour - people not washing their hands after using the toilet and then spreading their germs all over the holds..

One of my pet hates is seeing someone walk straight out from a cubicle after taking a dump washing their hands. Usually having walked through a pool of piss while wearing their climbing shoes.

drives my OCD side nuts, although probably no worse than handling loose change 

One of the benefits of having been essentially cash free since 2017.

Tops off - mixed feelings on this. When it's boiling like now then it's a no-brainer to go tops off. When it's mid-winter and there's that one guy it's spot the dickhead.

I envy all these people who get to train at a wall that isn't roasting in winter. Got to make sure the mothers don't catch a chill as they sip their lattes.

If we're lucky, there might be a few unseasonably cool days in spring or autumn where it isn't too hot. There is also a no tops off rule except on the boards. Makes anything slopey thoroughly unpleasant for large chunks of the year.

[abarro81]

And at the end of the day, if you don't like their rules, don't use their facilities.

God damn right, if any wall I went to banned tops off I wouldn't go again on principle.

Also, and perhaps this just shows what a knob I am, but I'm not really bothered about whether climbing is diverse or not. People can climb or not climb as they wish.. anyone care to convince me why I should care more? Plus, if people feel put off by tops off then what on earth will happen to them when they go to the crag; or for that matter when they go to a beach or swimming pool?

IMO, all summed up best by Yan many years ago with something along the lines of... "it's a climbing wall, not a golf course"

[Fiend]

Worth reiterating that different people get very differently affected by temperature and sweating. I've climbed with someone who couldn't climb on grit in winter because his hands got too cold - I was never once tempted to accuse him of making it up.

OTOH not washing hands after pissing is definitely unacceptable but it's amazing how many people still do it. I was at the services the other day watching a father and son walk out of the loos without washing their hands and was on the verge of blurting out "hey you're wiping your cock hands all over the door handles other people are using" . But didn't, just used my elbow to nudge the door open.

Even as someone who is rather sweaty and finds drying hands crucial, I still give mine two washes - one under the tap, one in liquid chalk. When TCA opened I did suggest that they have a dangling chalkball next to the hand driers, I still think this would be a good idea!!

[sdm]

One of my pet hates is seeing someone walk straight out from a cubicle after taking a dump without washing their hands. Usually having walked through a pool of piss while wearing their climbing shoes.

What I meant to write...

[Nibile]

Not that I needed more proof, but this thread makes me even more proud of my mantra #neverleavemyboard

[Paul B]

The foil blanket at the Hangar in Liverpool is really upsetting; you can feel the heat increasing higher up the problems 

I believe Fiend (perhaps it's mentioned in the preceding pages) called their bluff on the no-shirts rule and was asked to leave 

[petejh]

One of my pet hates is seeing someone walk straight out from a cubicle after taking a dump without washing their hands. Usually having walked through a pool of piss while wearing their climbing shoes.

What I meant to write...

Yuck.
One of my local walls has a ‘lights out’ boulder comp/party - someone could go round shining a UV light on the holds showing which were the most covered in old faeces and urine stains 🤮