[Nibile]

Kinder is an idiot with no sense of humour and a coward.
For this he deserves to be treated as such, and to learn a job.

[Moo]

So a slightly different perspective on this, is to look at it as two fictional characters having an online spat. Some "Pro" climbers instagram accounts are so far removed, from what the actual person is like in real life, that it's essentially using their face as an avatar for whatever brand they're promoting.

The irony here is that Joe Kinder got called out while using a fake instagram account for things he would never dream of putting under his own name. He was also taking the mick out of what is very likely a fake version of Sasha. Bear in mind that for some athletes, they look at the demographic which follows their instagram most and tailor posts ( literally which kinds of photos to take and what kind of language to use ) to get the most likes.

The whole online persona thing for athletes is a complete mess and leads to a mass of repetitive fabricated bullshit which I really couldn't give two fucks about.

[Moo]

https://www.brandwatch.com/blog/marketing-top-6-free-instagram-analytics-tools-uncovered/

Just incase people think the monitoring of instagram posts is unfounded nonsense.

[teestub]

It’s not Instagram monitoring bit that comes across as nonsense, it’s the suggestion that somehow this doesn’t count as bullying because it’s on the interweb.

[Oldmanmatt]

It’s not Instagram monitoring bit that comes across as nonsense, it’s the suggestion that somehow this doesn’t count as bullying because it’s on the interweb.

The (officially) single most powerful man in the world, thinks this kind of behaviour is just fine...

[T_B]

I’ve had a bit if a learning experience over the last few years. It would take too long to detail the entire process, but I’ve come to realise that being a woman sucks and I am privileged in ways I had simply not grasped, for having this rather mundane and average dick in my shorts.
The daily torrent of crap, administered in little, seemingly insignificant, razor cuts; that most women endure (from a very young age) is startling when you stop and look.
Banter is fine, between peers, up to a point. Pretty sure you all have experienced a time when it went too far. Did you stand up for yourself? Did you push back?
What if you couldn’t? Too small? Too scared?
What if pushing back just gets you labled a whiny bitch? Or a “Bloody awkward woman” or “must be on her blob”?

+ 1. Good post.

[Davo]

Jesus! Just read that article. Thought this was a particularly interesting paragraph/perspective!!

"Rock climbing is also a pursuit that relies heavily on things like privilege and access to indigenous land. It tends to glorify a colonialist attitude and conquering things. It promotes the shirking of responsibility. And just like society at large, this community actively promotes misogyny, white supremacy, ableism, rape culture, homophobia, transphobia, body shaming, and the erasure of native narratives."

If that is what she thinks, why does she actually climb?

[Doylo]

They’re all the reasons I like it.

[Sasquatch]

 

The definition of bullying is:
"use superior strength or influence to intimidate (someone), typically to force him or her to do what one wants."

Does anyone think in this case/scenario that Joe had "superior strength or influence"? 

[gme]

I am sorry but that article just does not resonate with me at all. Either the sport has changed or is very different in america.

[Oldmanmatt]

Jesus! Just read that article. Thought this was a particularly interesting paragraph/perspective!!

"Rock climbing is also a pursuit that relies heavily on things like privilege and access to indigenous land. It tends to glorify a colonialist attitude and conquering things. It promotes the shirking of responsibility. And just like society at large, this community actively promotes misogyny, white supremacy, ableism, rape culture, homophobia, transphobia, body shaming, and the erasure of native narratives."

If that is what she thinks, why does she actually climb?

Ok, now read it again, allowing for the “angry human-being, triggered by events” factor; apply your own moderation, excise the hyperbole and the salient points are largely incontestable. Much of it has been adequately illustrated in the popular press of late.

No, I’m not sure what “Erasing the Native Narative” means either, or if the Bowline/Fig 8 debate is Transphobic. Or even if it’s fair to say “the community” as if it’s something tangible. But misogyny, homophobia et al are still regular guests at the table of Society at large (that one is quite tangible, if a tad slippery).

Or, to put it another way, don’t throw the baby out with the bath water.

Social services get antsy about things like that...

[Davo]

 

They’re all the reasons I like it.

Brilliant!

[Davo]

 Am struggling to see climbers promoting "rape culture"

[Oldmanmatt]

Am struggling to see climbers promoting "rape culture"

It’s the ropes.

And the knots.

That and sticking yer nuts in cracks and stuff.

I think that tidbit was a bit daft.

Though, for “Rape culture” ask a woman to explain it to you, preferably more than one (and probably not your Mum). It’s quite likely to upset you more than you realise.

[Sasquatch]

Also - I find it reprehensible by both BD and La Sportiva that they did nothing about this privately when Sasha reached out to them, but now are getting Kudo's for following the lynching crowd.  If they really cared about the bullying, they would have dealt with this when Sasha reached out to them privately.  But they did nothing, and hence we have the public outcry. 

[Sasquatch]

Though, for “Rape culture” ask a woman to explain it to you, preferably more than one (and probably not your Mum). It’s quite likely to upset you more than you realise.

I agree this is quite upsetting to see from the other side.  This is a seriously upsetting inequality that needs fixing.

[Doylo]

Am struggling to see climbers promoting "rape culture"

The only evidence I’ve seen of this is during a session in the Denbigh Den.

[petejh]

So.. what’s the big deal then about posting from fake accounts? I’ve been doing it here for years using the codename ‘shark’, ‘sloper’, and ‘three nine’. Is that bad? 

[teestub]

Your definition.of bullying seems pretty narrow to me, do people become less emotionally vulnerable because they have found success, or are well educated?

[i_a_coops]

Am struggling to see climbers promoting "rape culture"

Maybe no more so than society at large, but in all the cases I know of people are way more likely to believe a man than a woman when it comes to allegations of assault made by a woman against a man (sadly, including in the climbing community). The result, it's really hard to actually come forward and openly accuse someone of assault if you know there's a good chance that people basically won't listen and you'll get put through the wringer yourself.

[moose]

Jesus! Just read that article. Thought this was a particularly interesting paragraph/perspective!!

"Rock climbing is also a pursuit that relies heavily on things like privilege and access to indigenous land. It tends to glorify a colonialist attitude and conquering things. It promotes the shirking of responsibility. And just like society at large, this community actively promotes misogyny, white supremacy, ableism, rape culture, homophobia, transphobia, body shaming, and the erasure of native narratives."

If that is what she thinks, why does she actually climb?

I thought my weekly trips to Kilnsey were just a means of filling the empty hours before I can justify going home, turning the telly on, and starting on the G&Ts.  I now consider my privilege "checked".

[Danny]

Jesus! Just read that article. Thought this was a particularly interesting paragraph/perspective!!

"Rock climbing is also a pursuit that relies heavily on things like privilege and access to indigenous land. It tends to glorify a colonialist attitude and conquering things. It promotes the shirking of responsibility. And just like society at large, this community actively promotes misogyny, white supremacy, ableism, rape culture, homophobia, transphobia, body shaming, and the erasure of native narratives."

If that is what she thinks, why does she actually climb?

I thought my weekly trips to Kilnsey were just a means of filling the empty hours before I can justify going home, turning the telly on, and starting on the G&Ts.  I now consider my privilege "checked".

As I said earlier in this thread, I suspected this wouldn't be the end of it. I consider myself very much towards the SJW end of the political spectrum, so I'd be inclined to be sympathetic to many of the general positions taken in the article, but instead it strikes me as utter drivel. There was a meaningful conversation to be had here...unfortunately it's obfuscated by a litany of generic 'isms'. Ableism? Transphobia?

Also, the guidebook authors thing cracked me up. We all know they're <0.01 % of the climbing population, and on the lunatic keeno fringe. Looking at you, Pete. White male privilege is good for something: in this case building handrails into the Diamond and rertobolting chossy Welsh sea cliffs. You utter bigot.

     

[Sasquatch]

Your definition.of bullying seems pretty narrow to me, do people become less emotionally vulnerable because they have found success, or are well educated?

Something can be hurtful, hateful, spiteful, mean, etc. and not be bullying.  Bullying comes from a position of power over another and generally has an intended outcome.  Some people are assholes and mean, but that doesn't automatically turn them into bullies. 

[teestub]

Cool, so he’s not a ‘bully’ in this case, just an unprofessional abusive asshole who chose the wrong person to pick on. 

[highrepute]

Your definition.of bullying seems pretty narrow to me, do people become less emotionally vulnerable because they have found success, or are well educated?

Something can be hurtful, hateful, spiteful, mean, etc. and not be bullying.  Bullying comes from a position of power over another and generally has an intended outcome.  Some people are assholes and mean, but that doesn't automatically turn them into bullies.

The power comes from the fact that Sasha has weaknesses - eating disorder and is a women who has a body ideal that she is expected to conform to. Joe has the power in that he has chosen to exploit these weaknesses by making critical posts about Sasha's appearance. This is classic "body shaming" and I think many would consider it bullying. It sounds like it's gone on for some time (through snapchat and instagram) which adds to the sense that it is bullying and not bants.