[Will Hunt]

FWIW, I think I've done the infamous Mod in question when a non-climbing friend asked to go out and try it. I think it's one called The Jolly Pleasant Scramble. Goes up the first section which is a few ledgey bits that you can see in the photo. You can place a low runner and then you go out right and up a relatively long, completely gearless, and completely holdless friction slab. I mean, it's low angled and piss, obviously, which is why it's a Mod. But in trainers? When piss wet through? Give those guys a medal.

[dunnyg]

I thought we had moved on from the leader never falls? If you leave the gear in between attempts its probably less damage than having one go every week until you can do it. The reason the climbs at birchen are wrecked is more likely to be because people are placing gear in exactly the same place and then pulling it out rather than people keep falling on it, no? Sounds like someone should do some science anyway.

[teestub]

Boulderers and climbers on grit need to wake up to what is going on where serious damage is being done and think a bit harder about specific solutions rather than complaining about non issues and by being too general discouraging things that are simply not a problem.

Putting your worthy list of issues with popular grit venues aside, you can hopefully see that posting photos of people climbing on wet grit with no context (as is generally the case on Insta, who is going to read caveats in a photo description?) coukd well add to your list of problems rather then reduce it.

As an experienced rock cat you know that it’s fine to put your socks over your climbing boots and do some wet severes, new trad climbers following BMC’s insta are not going to get the subtleties involved in what is and isn’t acceptable. If easy trad is ok in the rain why not easy bouldering? There aren’t any holds to pull of Crescent Arête.

[Offwidth]

I thought we had moved on from the leader never falls? If you leave the gear in between attempts its probably less damage than having one go every week until you can do it. The reason the climbs at birchen are wrecked is more likely to be because people are placing gear in exactly the same place and then pulling it out rather than people keep falling on it, no? Sounds like someone should do some science anyway.

I don't mind falls after a decent attempt what bugs me is the repeat falls and dogging and grinding that we observed time after time after time on the 50+ visits to the crag when we wrote it up for Froggatt, and most often on the climbs that happen to have the most damage. You could hear the cams eating the rock while incompetants lurched around  on a half way hanging rest  on Orpheus Wall. Not quite science but pretty sound observational evidence. I'd happily see a ban on cam use on damaged sandstones.

On the point  made by teestub its partly because bumblies got their first (they were climbing on wet mods before bouldering was even a thing)  but more because comparative damage is massively different....mods have barely changed in generations since the nails were abandoned... popular boulder problems are really suffering:  the surface is starting to go on CA and one of the best problems of the grade in the UK might well be trashed in a decade. Also this seems to me less about wet rock and more about brush damage and climbing with poor technique or dirty shoes... good ninjas simply don't trash grit. The chalked footholds on CA that caused a stir not so long back were also depressing.

[fatneck]

Reminds me of back in the day, (not really, it was about 12 years ago) when I first took Millso and Crouchy to Curbar and had to explain to them that Sharma-esgue roaring whilst falling off Gorilla Warfare was not the done thing. Does this not happen any more?

[GazM]

Nice peice on the subject from Monkeyboy here: https://www.theprojectmagazine.com/features/2018/7/27/magicwoodsconservation

[dunnyg]

Sounds more like he thinks it is just too popular than anything else.

[Footwork]

An easy fix would be making the grades brick hard in the guide. People love holiday grades.

Why does no one go to Buoux anymore? 

[dunnyg]

Simples, there are fewer Instagram likes if the grade is smaller.

[Paul B]

I particularly enjoyed all of the posts from various 'athletes' for 'world earth day' before proclaiming where they were off to next.

It's hardly surprising that the French and Spanish are becoming ever more secretive with newly developed venues.

Wasn't there an article by Nick Bullock (search has failed me) that commented on the death of uncertainty with regards of conditions? Lifts/conditions threads may be useful but I think they're a bit contributor to certain negative behaviors.

Also I read an article (again, I've failed to find it) suggesting that those of a certain demographic are essentially the worst-offenders in terms of their own environmental impact i.e. like myself; I'm a complete hypocrite as my attitude to travel and other more convenient choices such as recyling are at opposite ends of the spectrum.

Perhaps we should all be looking in the direction of Carlisle Slapper?

[tomtom]

The idea of fallow times is interesting....

For some of our crags (e.g. Plantation) leaving them over Summer would allow the veg to recover.. problem is the honey pot sites are caned all year around.

Do the lime crags fare better? Because there are periods in the year (long periods) when they are unclimbable?

[cheque]

I particularly enjoyed all of the posts from various 'athletes' for 'world earth day' before proclaiming where they were off to next.

A bit like the Team Sky cyclists wearing kit that decries plastic in the oceans while hoying plastic bottles directly into the countryside.

Following pro climbers on Insta is a real eye-opener regarding how much air travel is involved.

For some of our crags (e.g. Plantation) leaving them over Summer would allow the veg to recover.. problem is the honey pot sites are caned all year around.

Outside of what many would consider the season is when the most clueless climbers are there too.

It seems to me that in the time this forum’s existed bouldering’s gone from the preserve of the experienced, “in the know” minority to the first choice of the hapless newbie. It’s not great environmentally, particularly as bouldering has the highest ratio of climbers:nature of all the disciplines.

[teestub]

Bidons only go to fans or into designated disposal areas these days, big fines otherwise. They are also made of starch based plastics these days so any that don’t get picked up degrade a lot faster.

I agree with your other points.

I guess you would need at least a full year for veg regrowrth and probably some treatment of the hard packed soils to ehnace growth in those areas? Without management you’d probably also only get nettles etc coming through. In general limestone crags are generally going to be in more fertile areas than grit ones.

[tomtom]

Anyone remember how quickly (or not) crags recovered during foot and mouth (2001?)

[cheque]

Bidons only go to fans or into designated disposal areas these days, big fines otherwise. They are also made of starch based plastics these days so any that don’t get picked up degrade a lot faster.

Cheers for that. I’m clueless about cycling and only really watch the TdF ‘cos my girlfriend has it on- she’s just told me that she’s explained the rubbish zone thing to me in the past as well. 

[jwi]

An easy fix would be making the grades brick hard in the guide. People love holiday grades.

Why does no one go to Buoux anymore?

A route developer from Pobla de Seguro (just north of Tremp) openly told me that he put the grades about a letter and a half harder than in Terrades/Bruixes on his new favourite crag because he like to keep it to a smaller group of climbers. Works until a commercial guidebook operator discover the crag and "fix" this.

[andy_e]

An easy fix would be making the grades brick hard in the guide. People love holiday grades.

Trip to Magic Grades anyone? Softlands next year?

[36chambers]

An easy fix would be making the grades brick hard in the guide. People love holiday grades.

Trip to Magic Grades anyone? Softlands next year?

  

"Hard rock, soft grades"

[Johnny Brown]

The idea of fallow times is interesting....

For some of our crags (e.g. Plantation) leaving them over Summer would allow the veg to recover.. problem is the honey pot sites are caned all year around.

This was suggested ten years or so again when we did the restoration work at the Plantation. I wasn't in favour for a few reasons. Mainly because the issue was that the vegetation had been lost and the subsoil underneath was being rapidly eroded. Vegetation needs soil, so closing these areas would have had little to no effect while limiting access for no reason. Then you've got the issue of folk obeying or breaking the restrictions becoming the focus of attention (as it can be with bird bans) rather than the success or not of the restriction.

The work we did concentrated on refilling the eroded areas and blocking drainage routes. It seems to have largely worked with the erosion having mostly halted and the vegetation now creeping in rather than back. The next step would have been topsoil, seed and a restriction. Again, we didn't go for that. Part of it was a case of wanting to see what happened first, and also I was far from convinced any vegetation, particularly newly established, would withstand the rates of footfall. Effectively we have footpaths ringing most of the boulders now and I think footpath style erosion control will be the only effective solution. Plus there were issues like sourcing the correct seed and topsoil etc.

There are a few spots I keep an eye on each time I go - Deliverance, NTBTA and The Storm. Deliverance is of course totally bare but seems not to be getting worse. NTBTA seems quite resilient but very weather dependent - at the moment it is bare, but in wet summer would have regrassed. Wet winters seem to affect it worse as it becomes mud. The Storm is perhaps the most interesting as it was gullying but was patioed. The cracks soon filled with soil and grassed over, worked very well but may be tricky on bigger areas.

[Bradders]

Perhaps we should all be looking in the direction of Carlisle Slapper?

Assuming you mean sticking mainly to climbing in the UK; having spent the last couple of years doing exactly that I can tell you it's hardly a carbon neutral approach given how many miles you have to rack up driving.

[tim palmer]

Nice peice on the subject from Monkeyboy here: https://www.theprojectmagazine.com/features/2018/7/27/magicwoodsconservation

All those pictures of magic wood just make me want to go back! 

[tomtom]

Perhaps we should all be looking in the direction of Carlisle Slapper?

Assuming you mean sticking mainly to climbing in the UK; having spent the last couple of years doing exactly that I can tell you it's hardly a carbon neutral approach given how many miles you have to rack up driving.

Yup. My hobby typically consumes 2-300 miles per week...

[SA Chris]

I think CS has done more than a few trips to Scotland too, although they tend to be longer term, rather than for a weekend.

[Bradders]

Nice peice on the subject from Monkeyboy here: https://www.theprojectmagazine.com/features/2018/7/27/magicwoodsconservation

All those pictures of magic wood just make me want to go back!

Ha yes for an article about the damage being caused to Magic Wood, and the impact it's having on the beauty of the place, there sure are a lot of photos of it looking pretty beautiful and a remarkable lack of any showing the damage!

[Paul B]

I think CS has done more than a few trips to Scotland too, although they tend to be longer term, rather than for a weekend.

It's nothing compared to air travel though is it:

Colorado,
Sydney,
Turku,
Meteora,

for my massive hoof print this year alone. Last year was an even larger crater. How many weeks of driving at 2-300 miles a week do you need to do to catch up?