[joe dobson]

Can I please remind people about the no dogs policy at Woodwell O'ert Road?

It appears some people are ignoring the rules, for example...

[cha1n]

There have been some comments on UKB about this dogs and this video and the fact that no dogs are allowed a Woodwell.
At the time, I was not aware of this ban as it was not documented in the guidebook - which is where I have normally seen the information on access restrictions. We spoke to a local and he said that there had been issues in the past, but it was not really documented anywhere.
I would log into UKB but can't. Apologies for any issues which may have arisen from this and I will not be taking the dogs there in the future. It was a genuine mistake and not a blatant disregard for the rules as the comment on the video and in UKB suggests. I am not that kind of climber.

How do you know they were ignoring rules if they aren't documented in a guidebook? Would have been a bit more grown up to have messaged them to find out the truth. I'm guessing that if they were blatantly ignoring the rules that they wouldn't have put a public video up on the internet for everyone to see...

[tomtom]

It's not my beef but from the lakesbloc topo/guide



Dogs were tied up though..

[cha1n]

Is there a hard-copy guidebook that omits the information? All I know is that I know Jen and Marco and they aren't the sort of people who would knowingly break rules that could risk access.

[a dense loner]

That's ok then

[cha1n]

UPDATE: It appears the guidebook does state that no dogs are allowed. This was not read before going and for that I apologise. I love my dogs and try and take them with me everywhere, but if a crag says no dogs then I don't go or get them looked after like I did when I went to sheep pen in North Wales. It was a quick decision to go and therefore I didn't read the guide but was shown blocs rather than go through the guide. Be assured I won't be going again with the dogs but I stand by my comment that the sed person should have asked me first if I was aware rather then tar me with the image of being a climber who disregards rules. I clean up crags, I tell folk who do disregard the rules. I enjoy climbing and wouldn't knowing risk access.

Updates from Jen on fb above (she can't access UKB).

[abarro81]

Nothing wrong with the OP's post, however much she dislikes being called up for it. If you see someone breaking the rules the onus is not on you to go investigating how aware of them they were before you're allowed to post a thread reminding people of the rules!

[lagerstarfish]

she can't access UKB

she must have done something pretty bad to deserve this

[cha1n]

Nothing wrong with the OP's post, however much she dislikes being called up for it. If you see someone breaking the rules the onus is not on you to go investigating how aware of them they were before you're allowed to post a thread reminding people of the rules!

Yeh, I had no problem with the theme of the post. Obviously reminding people of access status is not a bad thing, it's just when you state someone has ignored the rules before you know the facts. He did comment on her video and she replied and apologised.

Anyway, I think all that can be achieved from this thread has been now!

[Greg C]

Nothing wrong with the OP's post, however much she dislikes being called up for it. If you see someone breaking the rules the onus is not on you to go investigating how aware of them they were before you're allowed to post a thread reminding people of the rules!

Yeh, I had no problem with the theme of the post. Obviously reminding people of access status is not a bad thing, it's just when you state someone has ignored the rules before you know the facts. He did comment on her video and she replied and apologised.

Look they were in the wrong. The only facts anyone needs to know are that they ignored the guide and the two clear and simple BMC signs - one at the entrance to the crag and the other next to where one of their dogs is tied up.

[a dense loner]

Haha, stay a little while longer this time Greg 

[Johnny Brown]

The comment thread popped up on my FB thread this weekend, worst attempt to apologise I've seen for a while. Most of us are nice people and don't do this stuff on purpose. Unfortunately you have to be a bit more proactive, particularly s a dog owner. Disturb a schedule 1 bird and the law explicitly states that ignorance is not a defence.

[abarro81]

That popped up on my FB too after cjd commented on it. I'm sure Jen's a lovely person in real life, but it makes you come across poorly when you whine about getting told off for doing something wrong, especially when you imply that the person telling you off is somehow at fault.

[Johnny Brown]

Given that so many climbing sites are SSSIs, nature reserves, working farms, grouse moors or all four, restrictions on dogs are far more common than most folk realise or assume. The 'right to roam' given by the CRoW act applies to people, not dogs. It causes big problems when negotiating access as these restrictions are so frequently ignored. It is probably safest to assume that if you are off a public footpath dogs are not permitted.

[cha1n]

I must admit that I jumped in to defend the couple knowing their character and love for climbing and the outdoors, but also based on the nature that the guy had called them out (assuming they had ignored rules as opposed to not seen them, which could have been possible had it been only in the guide).

Obviously, now it transpires that there were signs at the crag that I didn't know about (one of which the dog was tied to, doh), it's hard to defend that.

I suppose it's always tempting to push your luck when you travel a long distance to a crag and things aren't as you expected, such as bird bans, access bans, rock is a little damp. I'm sure they've learnt from the experience and won't do it again as risking access just isn't fair.

[tomtom]

Anyway, I think all that can be achieved from this thread has been now!

....

[GCW]

The Access to WoR is something that has been very delicate for years, and people have worked very hard to negotiate ongoing access.  It is therefore a bit of a sore point if people don't stick to the rules and risk us losing access again.

[Greg C]

Speaking of apologies, I’ll put up an apology of my own. The signs don’t actually specify the rules laid out on both my guide, the BMC RAD website or National Trust references. As they were put up on pretty much the same day I was given those ‘rules’ by the BMC/NT I had assumed they were on the signs (seems a bit daft). They just state access is sensitive and to not go past the furthest sign.

That aside there are plenty of references on my site and other sources - BMC, NT, UKC - stating no dogs here, so, as JB says, I think dog owners do need to be a bit more proactive when visiting crags.

I asked Jen to take her video down and she did straight away and she's apologised...so let's just let sleeping dogs lie. 

[cha1n]

Anyway, I think all that can be achieved from this thread has been now!

....

I wanted to add to my comments as Greg said their dogs were tied to a sign that said no dogs and it's pretty hard to defend someone if that was the case, though since my post Jen (and now Greg below) has informed me that the signs don't actually state no dogs, so certainly possible to turn up to the crag without knowing access. I've definitely just gone to crags before without checking a guidebook and just climbed whatever I liked the look of.

Seems like some valuable lessons may have been learnt from the thread afterall. I certainly wouldn't have known to be so diligent with checking access if taking a dog to a crag, so if it's educated a few people, then it's been worth it.

[tomtom]

Precisely ....

[SA Chris]

http://www.ukclimbing.com/logbook/crag.php?id=470

UKC is always worth a look for info like this too.

[Johnny Brown]

The BMC RAD app is worth installing on your phone too: https://www.thebmc.co.uk/bmc-rad-android-app

[crazy climbing pete]

[grumble grumble] what's wrong with dogs at crags?! [grumble grumble] [climbs elsewhere]

[Will Hunt]

[grumble grumble] what's wrong with dogs at crags?! [grumble grumble] [climbs elsewhere]

<lights fuse>
http://ukbouldering.com/board/index.php?topic=24062.0

<stands well back>
 

[crazy climbing pete]

wry smile on face, not taking this too serious but...

1. i CAN control my dog. Anyone can control my dog. She's so obedient, i had to teach her in a different language so she won't obey commands that weren't for her

2. she is trained to ignore sheep, so much so, she'll come back to me when she finds one. and she's a collie so it is doable with the right training

3. i never blame other people for her bad behaviour - i give her an enormous bollocking and apologise profusely. Again, she's trained to come back to me when something spooks her.

I find it frustrating that even though i can control my dog, she is heavily trained and generally doesn't cause any issues, i still have to keep her on lead (where she's actually worse) or not take her at all.

HOWEVER, i do understand and the points in the other post are ENTIRELY justified and you can only legislate for the worst case scenario. And the access for Woodwell o'ert Road hasn't long been negotiated so anything to try and keep things sweet makes sense.

Doesn't mean i can't grumble though ;-)