[a dense loner]

Fuck me I'm glad I'm not tom, within 5 posts that kind of talk could cost someone their chosen career! If you're unhappy with what you're getting, yet have no idea why you're getting it, you'd do well to speak to your coach first without spraying nonsense all over the net.
And ffs stop saying the problems you're doing at the works are 7b and 7b+ when they're about 6c maybe + and 7a respectively, I've done them in trainers, no I haven't Brian. This may be where you're going wrong grade wise.

[shark]

Tom Randall did set me a plan which I followed a few winters ago but it didn't yield the results I was after.

Just out of interest, would you say that you followed the plan that we made up over this winter?

You know the answer to that

I did follow Tom's programme closely. I didn't peak when I was meant to and although I climbed well on long routes at the Tor later in the year I didn't get the early season strength gains I needed for the Oak which was the goal.

[AlistairB]

Yeah, for me I think being coached by Tom has worked out really well. Summer of 2013 before starting training with Tom I was trying Powerplant. Probably had about 7 sessions, got very close but always feeling super powered out and basically like it was the living end. Went back as soon as it was dry in 2014 after about 8 months of following Tom's plan, put the clips in, it felt steady and then just redpointed it first go without ever feeling like I was going to fall off. Went on to tick more or less everything I wanted to that summer and often quicker than I'd expected. Seemed to have continued on a more or less linear upwards trajectory since, nothing ground-shattering but then I'm a distinctly average climber. Oh also I can finally recover on jugs on properly steep stuff now, makes you feel like a real sport climber when you go to Europe!

I would say this though, be very careful with your total load. I assume you're on 3 weeks on 1 week off like I am. Generally week 1 feels pretty piss and there's often the temptation to try and sneak more volume in (cheeky extra bouldering pre-training at the wall etc.) This is the path to ruin. I will always find by week 3 I'm feeling pretty beat up without doing any extra stuff (this years base over winter/spring was 4 training sessions, 1 climbing) and really need the rest. The point is that the training load has to be sustainable, as opposed to what most of us do in our earlier self-coached years whereby we thrash ourselves and then end up in a massive over-training hole of poor recovery and performance.

A bit of discipline goes a long way and make sure that your training to climbing ratio is enough to actually keep you happy (no good being fit but unmotivated), for this reason we cut my training to 2/3 sessions over the summer each year so I can actually put the training into practice!

[abarro81]

You know the answer to that

Just wanted to check we were on the same wavelength.
I think I usually manage to peak right for about 75% of my trips. I then have slightly inexplicable peaks and dips around other times too - you can try to get your body to do what you want, but it doesn't always obey.

[cha1n]

I don't think the fingerboarding is because of my finger, I assume it's his preferred method to train AeroCap. My finger has been a bit tweaky lately but it's not that bad. One of the A2 injuries is 5 months old and the other A2 was a bit tweaky whilst I was compensating for the other A2 but has been fine for 3 weeks now.

My 7C's are a mixture I suppose, some crimpy stuff on granite (magic wood, la pedriza, Ailefroide), some slopey stuff (Font, Targasonne). I've only done one peak 7C actually and I've technically not done it because I didn't top out (brass monkeys).

I've not tried much peak lime yet but have done zippy's trav at crag x, a bigger tail, a bigger splash direct, would have done the press if it wasn't for splitting a tip (fell off 3 times trying to match the jug), weedkiller trav, some of the other low 7's at tor. I definitely feel closer to my limit on fingery limestone than I do on other rocktypes when I can abuse my arm/shoulder strength more.

Gareth (peak info) apparently didn't get the results he would have liked from his plan, Andy Morris without saying the words didn't seem too positive about how his training went but appreciate he's had finger issues. I'm not judging Tom on that though, there's also lots of high profile cases (like yourself) where he's done a great job. I'm just trying to make sure that if i'm sacrificing all this time and effort (and not climbing) that I'm on the right path as I'm very aware that my fingers are extremely weak for the grade and when I've read some of your stuff (Alex) and seen the volume of finger strength work you've been doing along-side the endurance stuff, I want to make sure that I shouldn't be doing the same sort of thing.

[shark]

You know the answer to that

Just wanted to check we were on the same wavelength.
I think I usually manage to peak right for about 75% of my trips. I then have slightly inexplicable peaks and dips around other times too - you can try to get your body to do what you want, but it doesn't always obey.

I know and I'm not blaming Tom. Everyone reacts differently and maybe mine was a delayed reaction though I do think the plan should have focussed on strength more given my bouldering weakness compared to redpoint grade though that probably puts me in a smallish minority these days.

[AlistairB]

I don't think the fingerboarding is because of my finger, I assume it's his preferred method to train AeroCap. My finger has been a bit tweaky lately but it's not that bad. One of the A2 injuries is 5 months old and the other A2 was a bit tweaky whilst I was compensating for the other A2 but has been fine for 3 weeks now.

My 7C's are a mixture I suppose, some crimpy stuff on granite (magic wood, la pedriza, Ailefroide), some slopey stuff (Font, Targasonne). I've only done one peak 7C actually and I've technically not done it because I didn't top out (brass monkeys).

I've not tried much peak lime yet but have done zippy's trav at crag x, a bigger tail, a bigger splash direct, would have done the press if it wasn't for splitting a tip (fell off 3 times trying to match the jug), weedkiller trav, some of the other low 7's at tor. I definitely feel closer to my limit on fingery limestone than I do on other rocktypes when I can abuse my arm/shoulder strength more.

Gareth (peak info) apparently didn't get the results he would have liked from his plan, Andy Morris without saying the words didn't seem too positive about how his training went but appreciate he's had finger issues. I'm not judging Tom on that though, there's also lots of high profile cases (like yourself) where he's done a great job. I'm just trying to make sure that if i'm sacrificing all this time and effort (and not climbing) that I'm on the right path as I'm very aware that my fingers are extremely weak for the grade and when I've read some of your stuff (Alex) and seen the volume of finger strength work you've been doing along-side the endurance stuff, I want to make sure that I shouldn't be doing the same sort of thing.

Get Ben's Roof done (with the kneebar after the start), perfect test of AnCap and probably the most amenable of the higher 7s at the Tor. I don't really get this "didn't get the results" thing. How do people know that their goals weren't just unrealistic?

[cha1n]

Fuck me I'm glad I'm not tom, within 5 posts that kind of talk could cost someone their chosen career! If you're unhappy with what you're getting, yet have no idea why you're getting it, you'd do well to speak to your coach first without spraying nonsense all over the net.
And ffs stop saying the problems you're doing at the works are 7b and 7b+ when they're about 6c maybe + and 7a respectively, I've done them in trainers, no I haven't Brian. This may be where you're going wrong grade wise.

I think you're overreacting a bit there dense. I've not said anything negative about Tom's training? I wouldn't have chosen him out of the vast amount of others in Sheffield if I didn't think he was the man for the job but I don't see why I can't ask others questions on the fitclub thread.

I think I'm fully capable of grading boulder problems relative to what they would get graded outside (regardless of what they'd get as an indoor grade). Perhaps we can meet at the works tonight so you could school me on grading (i've only climbed 150+ boulder problems between 7A and 7C afterall, perhaps I've missed something).

[AJM]

I don't think the fingerboarding is because of my finger, I assume it's his preferred method to train AeroCap

Gareth (peak info) apparently didn't get the results he would have liked from his plan, Andy Morris without saying the words didn't seem too positive about how his training went but appreciate he's had finger issues. I'm not judging Tom on that though, there's also lots of high profile cases (like yourself) where he's done a great job. I'm just trying to make sure that if i'm sacrificing all this time and effort (and not climbing) that I'm on the right path as I'm very aware that my fingers are extremely weak for the grade and when I've read some of your stuff (Alex) and seen the volume of finger strength work you've been doing along-side the endurance stuff, I want to make sure that I shouldn't be doing the same sort of thing.

I certainly didn't have any fingerboard aerocap prior to injuring my finger.

I think you're rather putting words into my mouth there, which I'm not 100% convinced about - if you weren't sure you could have asked. I've not had any opportunity yet to see the benefits in action, because I've missed out on a summer peak due to having bust my finger. That's been motivationally pretty tough, without a doubt, but that's the nature of combining periodization with ill timed finger injuries. I've possibly done more during rehab by virtue of being on a plan than I woukd have done otherwise but I've never had as long term abfinger injury before so that's all hypothetical.

In order to stop all the phantom guesswork about your weak fingers it might help to share the stats. There seem to be a few people here at similar grades so you might be able to get a sample to.compare against.

[abarro81]

I don't think the fingerboarding is because of my finger, I assume it's his preferred method to train AeroCap.

Again, better to ask him, but I doubt it. Why do you assume that? I know a bunch people people who train with Tom, I've never seen any of them doing aero cap on a fingerboard that I can think of (unless they're stuck in the middle of nowhere with only a fingerboard) so I don't think it's a default thing.

Andy's not seemed down on his training when I've chatted to him, though I've not spoken to him for a while. [Edit - he replied] Gareth I don't know, but "not getting the results you'd like" doesn't really mean anything without knowing what the results he'd like were, how long they trained together etc. This shit aint magic, it takes time. [EDIT: what Alistair said too] 

Personally, if I were to work with a coach I'd feel like I needed to give them a couple of years before judging the results fully as it'll take them time to get to know how you respond. This is partly why I don't use a coach.

Anyway, you're clearly not happy with the plan so talk to Tom about it.

P.s. How can you fall off the press trying to match the jug? It's a 1a move. Literally, in that it's a shake out.  Were you climbing footless? This will make you think I'm a dick, but everyone knows I'm a dick so I'll say it anyway: I'm beginning to get the impression that things you say on the net should be taken with a pinch of salt. No offence.

[cha1n]

I'm not overly happy with the fact that people think I'm putting Tom's training methods down, I'm just trying to make sure I understand where he's going with it. Initially I thought I could get some insight on one aspect from a comment from Alex (which I did) but then it escalated quickly from there.

I apologise if I got the wrong vibe from you Andy and I never said that you commented negatively on your training plan, just that I got the vibe that you weren't where you wanted to be but as I mentioned, I knew you were suffering from a finger injury that stopped things a bit.

Alex, no problem. If you get the impression I'm making things up, perhaps others are as well. What is it in particular that sounds unlikely? Haydn and Seb were there when I fucked up the match several times on the press. Seb was with me when I did zippy's trav recently, Mark20 was spotting when I did weedkiller traverse, etc, etc. I would never lie about anything I've done on rock, what would be the point? It's not like I'm climbing at the cutting edge or anything.

[AlistairB]

I don't think the fingerboarding is because of my finger, I assume it's his preferred method to train AeroCap.

Again, better to ask him, but I doubt it. Why do you assume that? I know a bunch people people who train with Tom, I've never seen any of them doing aero cap on a fingerboard that I can think of (unless they're stuck in the middle of nowhere with only a fingerboard) so I don't think it's a default thing.

Yeah, only person I know who's done fingerboard AeroCap was my other half when her leg was still too broken to climb. Worth saying actually that Tom managed to write her a broken-leg compatible plan and she managed to make pretty impressive gains throughout that whole ordeal despite it being many, many months before she could climb properly again. All kinds of stopwatch shenanigans on fingerboards and pullup bars but despite being pretty abstract from climbing it seemed to work.

Equally though, you climb at the Works, we climb at the Foundry. We do a lot of our AeroCap and AeroPow on the roped walls (plus bits on the woody) which isn't really an option at the Works so perhaps that's a reason too. Basically, just ask him, he's always had a good answer for any of my questions. One of the things I like about Tom is he actually seems to understand the relevant sports science rather than just trotting out things that have worked for him personally like some coaches. Also, things like the lactate curve and the finger strength benchmarking are about as much science as it's possible to apply to something as woolly as climbing performance which appeals to the scientist in me.

[cha1n]

Yeah, only person I know who's done fingerboard AeroCap was my other half when her leg was still too broken to climb.

That's interesting to read, it never occurred to me that he was changing the way I trained those things because of my finger. There should be a Randall forum where everyone getting trained by him can discuss the various ways they're being trained.

[Three Nine]

Alex, no problem. If you get the impression I'm making things up, perhaps others are as well. What is it in particular that sounds unlikely? Haydn and Seb were there when I fucked up the match several times on the press. Seb was with me when I did zippy's trav recently, Mark20 was spotting when I did weedkiller traverse, etc, etc. I would never lie about anything I've done on rock, what would be the point? It's not like I'm climbing at the cutting edge or anything.

You weren't being accused of fibbing, just of being crap.

[cha1n]

You weren't being accused of fibbing, just of being crap.

Yeh, I got the bit about being crap, I deserve that for dropping the match on the press (several times in a row) but my understanding of the idiom 'take with a pinch of salt' is that there is some doubt of the validity of someones comment.

I assumed he meant regarding my climbing as the comment came after my failure on the press but if it's in general, then I suppose I should take more time over how I word my posts as it seems somewhere down the line some people have assumed I'm bad mouthing Tom and that's not the case at all.

[abarro81]

Haha, I'm not saying you're lying about doing things, just that the vibe I get is that what you write on the net should be treated with a pinch of salt... Don't worry, it's better than the vibe most people get off 3-9 on the net which is that he should be kicked in the balls really fukcin' hard.

I genuinely don't believe it's possible to fall off matching the jug 3 times. It's literally a rest. Literally, not modern literally, but actually literally. Falling off getting/holding the jug yes, but then that's probably the crux of the problem.

"I never said you commented negatively on your training plan" ..... "Andy Morris without saying the words didn't seem too positive about how his training went" - whilst you'd be fine in a court of law, you used it to infer that exact point.

"I somehow find bouldering up to 7C ok" but sounds like you've not done one since being in Shef?

What dense was saying about shit at the works. Now I now dense is a dumbass, and usually unintelligible, but it's just a general vibe I'm getting...

"I don't think the fingerboarding is because of my finger, I assume it's his preferred method to train AeroCap"  - if I didn't already know Tom, and read that, and placed weight on it, I'd assume that his training was totally wack. That's why better not to place too much weight on it.

Anyway, I'm just being a dick, don't worry about it. See you at the tor tonight if you're there.

[AJM]

  with what Alex said about your inference - Tom uses Ukb and I'm sure he would probably have drawn exactly the inference Alex pointed out from your namecheck of me.

If I wasn't a lurker (and Alex hadn't chipped in) then the impression would not have been the one I'd have wanted to give.

Anyway this is very 

In terms of your fingers, are you sure you're being.told you have "weak for 8a" fingers rather than "weak for 7C fingers". Given Tom's assumed level of "weak for the grade" there's likely to be a world.of difference between the two - in Tom's world 8a route climbers can be, well, pretty dammed weak compared with.your average boulderer...

[cha1n]

No worries, I don't mind people getting pissed off at me for saying things I meant to say it's just annoying when I've given the wrong impression and people are getting pissed off about things I didn't mean. Using Andy as an example was, in hindsight, a bad idea as overall climbing pysche in general seems fairly low from his comments on fitclub/facebook mainly linked to finger injury stuff I guess.

True I haven't climbed a 7C since I've been in Sheffield. I was feeling really strong when I first moved here and then one of my A2's went pop which has made climbing hard over the winter difficult. I've climbed a fair few things up to 7B+ (if I dare take 7B+ for Dick Williams) but acknowledged, I wouldn't claim to have an accurate gauge on 7C as a grade at the moment.

(aimed more at dense) 7B/+ I feel more confident on commenting on. I only included grading at the works on my training log so I can gauge the difficulty of the session when looking back, saying I climbed a black on the comp wall is pretty useless. OK, the wasp on the left side of the comp wall may well be easier than 7B, I think I said I was tired when I did it and that it took me a while to figure out the beta for the hard move. The black I said was 7B/+ I was just going by how hard it felt compared to the pink to the left of it and that's easily 7A+ and I did it much faster than the black. Have you really climbed them? Hard to tell from your comment.

[Three Nine]

I used to go to the works a fair bit, and I never once saw Dense pull on. I always assumed he went there just to mope around?

[cha1n]

Good to hear your perspective Andy. I thought I was coming across more as a newbie to training and someone unsure of how training works in general, more than not being happy with Tom's plan, so I messed up there somewhere.

The main point is that I haven't taken the time to understand any of the theory, I've just gone to Tom's for an assessment and got him to give me a plan when I really should have got some more background info off of him. I've sent him a fairly long email now and I'm sure he'll sort it out.

I'm assuming he meant weak for 7C then 8a but then again, he was testing me quite open-handed and I'm very weak in that grip (he had not choice, I'm too injured to do max strength tests in a crimped position).

[cha1n]

Oh and probably won't see you at the tor. I had a text from Tom this morning telling me off for picking such fingery routes to try when my dodgy(ish) finger. Think I'm going to have to wait until I can get someone to go to the cornice or something. Might still go and try Kudos though as I don't think it's overly finger. Worst case I'll go and try moffattrocity or something.

[a dense loner]

Yes I have done them, and I have done them in my trainers

There you go again, you've been advised not to do something fingery so you're going to try kudos!!! It appears that you don't listen. I'm not interested I couldn't give a flying fuck what you do it's no skin off my nose but you do appear to be one of them people that asks for advice or whatever but you've already made your mind up. That's what weak Alex is referring to as well

I don't go to the works at night, it affects my chest I'm afraid.

[Three Nine]

Oh and probably won't see you at the tor. I had a text from Tom this morning telling me off for picking such fingery routes to try when my dodgy(ish) finger. Think I'm going to have to wait until I can get someone to go to the cornice or something. Might still go and try Kudos though as I don't think it's overly finger. Worst case I'll go and try moffattrocity or something.

Roof warrior is easy at 8a and not very crimpy if I remember correctly?

[Three Nine]

Or you could go to Kilnsey do something there? The Bulge, Subculture, The Thumb, Urgent Action, Above the Thumb are all not very crimpy. I certainly had a bad finger when I did the bulge and the Thumb and had no probs. Also they're better than their peak equivalents. For someone who's a good boulderer, subculture should be a breeze.

[AJM]

Good to hear your perspective Andy. I thought I was coming across more as a newbie to training and someone unsure of how training works in general, more than not being happy with Tom's plan, so I messed up there somewhere.

The main point is that I haven't taken the time to understand any of the theory, I've just gone to Tom's for an assessment and got him to give me a plan when I really should have got some more background info off of him. I've sent him a fairly long email now and I'm sure he'll sort it out.

I'm assuming he meant weak for 7C then 8a but then again, he was testing me quite open-handed and I'm very weak in that grip (he had not choice, I'm too injured to do max strength tests in a crimped position).

Worth checking. If you went there with a stg of 8a in 3 months then you might well be being measured against 8a benchmarks and being.given a crash fitness programme as a result - grip type aside I find it very easy to believe that you'd be very strong and totally.unfit as measured against.Tom's benchmarks, especially since.I know I was a less.extreme.version of that diagnosis...