[dave k]

I am going to argue that we should stick with the B system.

I spent 10 years working towards my first problem worthy of double figures. Only to have it turned from a B10/11, to a V9 (V8+). It just isn`t fair. Although I guess V10 is a worthy new target.

Ok thats a crap argument. Well what is actually the problem with the B system? With experience we can say that we were a little generous both with our grading (especially in the Peak) and with how it compares to Font grades.

Lets face it
B7= Font 6c+
B8= 7a
B9= 7b
B10=7c
B11=7c+
B12=8a

Now lets just make the adjustments and stick to it.

The UK tech grade is a useful addition for any of the systems.

The reason 6c covers such a wide band is cos 6c is getting towards the limit. 7a is seriously hard, 7b is mega and very few problems contain them. One 6c move can get B7/8, a combination of 6c moves can get B11/12. Most cutting edge problems worldwide are simply longer and appear to be worthy of route grades (as they would get in Font).

[AndyR]

I feel that these more basic styles of climbing can have their difficulty best described using the V system - a nice basic numerical system where the more you bear down, the bigger the number you can tick!

The more technical rock types that require a more subtle approach require a more subtle grading system to describe the difficulties involved, and this is what the font system does so well.

Please tell me you're taking the piss?

Lets face it, we're really bothered about the bit where bouldering starts to get interesting - let's call it about font 6c or V4 - from that point up to the cutting edge we have approx 13 font 'notches' and 12 V 'notches' - how is that so much more 'subtle' :roll:

[AndyR]

A grading system is just a sequence of names assigned to problems of similar difficulties. The only way the problem can be grouped is by comparing them to each other (or to benchmarks) if these benchmark problems are of similar style then it is easier to make a comparison.
So assuming that all the benchmarks for the Font grade system are in Font and of a general Font style then these benchmarks are easier compared to a similar style/type of rock like grit. Therefore the Font system will describe grit more accuratly than say limestone?

But Mr Dale - the 'benchmarks' already exist for v-grades for grit in Yorkshire - you don't even need to go to font! (plus, I think 'benchmarks' are a big red herring - the best we'll ever achieve is localised internal consistency for each area).

[Johnny Brown]

- let's call it about font 6c or V4 - from that point up to the cutting edge we have approx 13 font 'notches' and 12 V 'notches' - how is that so much more 'subtle'

agreed, there is no subtlety. The difference is that you can go to font and climb literally hundreds of problems of each grade, all of which have had enough ascents to settle down at that grade. 'Morpho' problems are then labelled as such.
NOWHERE can we do this with V-grades, certainly not yorkshire.

the 'benchmarks' already exist for v-grades for grit in Yorkshire - you don't even need to go to font!

Bollox. I lived in Leeds for a long time, enough to be a Caley and Almscliffe 'local', and never used V-grades, nor did anyone I knew. The available guide had grades that mainly wrong, and so no one used it. Why? Cos they had no benchmarks in the first place. Face it, any 'benchmark' V-grades in the Uk have been converted from another system.

[Kim]

blimey, this is a complete stalemate  :shock:
I've always preferred font grades for most of the reasons dave/JB say but i have been boulderin a bit shit of late, below my usual :D limits of (very) low 7s, an i've found myself thinkin in Vs all the time. And have decided i just can't pin down font grades below 7...don't know why, climbed plenty of em in font, but 5+,6a,6a+,6b,6b+,6c,6c+ seem to cover V3,V4,V5 to me. But in theory font grades are ideal for solvin the "no-grades for easy problems" argument - double the number of grades below V6...but not for me Then again if what we want is a unified system across the country (which would be good) as bubba is saying Vs seem the best option. I don't think font grades will ever be used across the country, so bonjoy's point about the peak giving up its preferred system to get in line is good.

In fact I agree with pretty much every post for both systems... :roll:

...so what the fuck should i vote for??   :?  :?:  :?

[Bubba]

Well what is actually the problem with the B system?

- It's only used in two places - the Peak and Northumberland and the grades of both areas bear little relation to each other, so really it's two independent systems.
- The grades in both areas are sometimes wildly innacurate.
- They might have been a good idea when devised, but it's not taken off. Most people ignore them and think in V or Font
- Why introduce a new system when we can adopt one of the existing worldwide systems?

[Bubba]

In fact I agree with pretty much every post for both systems... :roll:

Keeping both systems might seem like a good idea right now, as it keeps most people happy, but as a long term solution, it's crap. People will still be using one or the other and arguing over which is best. I think we should stop sitting on the fence and just go with one system.

If there was a realistic possibility that the rest of the UK would go with Font grades, then I'd be more than happy to go with that system even though I personally "think in V's". But I just can't see this happening - I say we  just take the plunge and go with the system that's most likely to unify UK bouldering grades.

[Bubba]

btw - who voted for "other"  and what did you have in mind  :D

[dave]

blimey, this is a complete stalemate  :shock:
I've always preferred font grades for most of the reasons dave/JB say but i have been boulderin a bit shit of late, below my usual :D limits of (very) low 7s, an i've found myself thinkin in Vs all the time. And have decided i just can't pin down font grades below 7...don't know why, climbed plenty of em in font, but 5+,6a,6a+,6b,6b+,6c,6c+ seem to cover V3,V4,V5 to me. But in theory font grades are ideal for solvin the "no-grades for easy problems" argument - double the number of grades below V6...but not for me Then again if what we want is a unified system across the country (which would be good) as bubba is saying Vs seem the best option. I don't think font grades will ever be used across the country, so bonjoy's point about the peak giving up its preferred system to get in line is good.

In fact I agree with pretty much every post for both systems... :roll:

...so what the fuck should i vote for??   :?  :?:  :?

yeah yeah muthafuckers, you all knew it was coming, yet you all aksd for it, and NOW ITS COMING IN YOUR EARS:

The Unified Grade Scale:

4c, 5a, 5b, 5c, 6a, V2, V3, V4, V5, 7a, 7a+, 7b, 7b+, 7c, 7c+, 8a, 8a+, 8b, 8b+, 8c.......

The triple-fuck of grading systems :3some:
steven hawking would be prowd.

[Bubba]

I knew it was only a matter of time  :roll:  :wink:

[dave]

People will still be using one or the other and arguing over which is best.

dunno bout anyone else but i like the arguments. especially when i'm always right.

[a dense loner]

percy speaks wisely

[Kim]

yeah yeah muthafuckers, you all knew it was coming, yet you all aksd for it, and NOW ITS COMING IN YOUR EARS:

The Unified Grade Scale:

4c, 5a, 5b, 5c, 6a, V2, V3, V4, V5, 7a, 7a+, 7b, 7b+, 7c, 7c+, 8a, 8a+, 8b, 8b+, 8c.......

The triple-fuck of grading systems :3some:
steven hawking would be prowd.

everyone would laugh at us, but too fucking right!

(tho i'd modify the middle to read ...5b,5c,V3,V4...)  :wink:

[a dense loner]

strangely enough all the people i climb with use a bastadization of the universal grading scale. the only difference being it has no V's in it :wink: while you're all at it you may as well vote for us on the european referendum. i don't want to join (join with my baby no more, never done nothin to hurt you no). but that doesn't seem to matter.

[AndyR]

The difference is that you can go to font and climb literally hundreds of problems of each grade, all of which have had enough ascents to settle down at that grade. 'Morpho' problems are then labelled as such.
NOWHERE can we do this with V-grades, certainly not yorkshire.

You must have been to a different font than me then - the one that I went to had grading as erratic as any other venue in the world......

Bollox. I lived in Leeds for a long time, enough to be a Caley and Almscliffe 'local', and never used V-grades, nor did anyone I knew. The available guide had grades that mainly wrong, and so no one used it. Why? Cos they had no benchmarks in the first place. Face it, any 'benchmark' V-grades in the Uk have been converted from another system.

Well why not simply convert your 'established' font grades into V-grades then - there are well known conversions so it should be pretty simple.  Then we could have unified grading system for the UK (as Bubba points out - nearly all of the rest of the UK is using V grades) - or do you still think that mythical, magical, kinaesthetically aware font grades are somehow a 'better' way to grade boulder problems?

[Johnny Brown]

Well why not simply convert your 'established' font grades into V-grades then

Why would i want to do that? How many guides actually use a proper V-scale, huh? Face it, the french know a lot more about bouldering than us. The 'merkins know a lot less. Just cos the government flys in the face of such logic doesn't mean we have to.

[a dense loner]

northumberland doesn't use V grades, the guidebook does, yorkshire doesn't use V grades the guidebook does, scotland doesn't use V grades, am bit hazy here but all the scots i know, granted it's a few, use font. so we are left with wales using V grades, you're more than welcome to. all the people i know who boulder pretty hard in these places, apart from wales, use font. it is only when reporting in that someone says what V grade is it that they will be converted, basically for websites like this that want to use V's

[AndyR]

Well why not simply convert your 'established' font grades into V-grades then

Why would i want to do that? How many guides actually use a proper V-scale, huh? Face it, the french know a lot more about bouldering than us. The 'merkins know a lot less. Just cos the government flys in the face of such logic doesn't mean we have to.

I don't know how much there really is to 'know' about bouldering, and I'm not sure how one country knows more than another :roll:

So you think we should regrade everything to font then? Burn the yorkshire and wales guidebooks - regrade everything in the lakes, south-west etc?

[AndyR]

yorkshire doesn't use V grades the guidebook does

You see, that's where we differ - everyone I know in yorkshire does use V-grades.

[dave]

when i was at uni before the YGB guide came out we'd often go to almscliffe, caley, brimham, slipstones etc. I never once heard V grades mentioned.

[a dense loner]

no, i don't care what you do with them guidebooks. we're not talking about burning them or using one scale. font grades for grit is what we're talking about.

and I'm not sure how one country knows more than another  

that is a good argument in a perfect world. how else would you explain the crazy gradin of oz n the think of a number, any number gradin of the americans

[Bubba]

northumberland doesn't use V grades, the guidebook does, yorkshire doesn't use V grades the guidebook does, scotland doesn't use V grades, am bit hazy here but all the scots i know, granted it's a few, use font. so we are left with wales using V grades, you're more than welcome to. all the people i know who boulder pretty hard in these places, apart from wales, use font. it is only when reporting in that someone says what V grade is it that they will be converted, basically for websites like this that want to use V's

Bollocks - Northumberland uses B grades, Yorkshire does in fact use V grades, no Scotland doesn't, but then we have Wales, Dartmoor and the South West, the Lakes, Staffs guides, future BMC guides in general, the North of England guides and It's been stated that the next Peak Rockfax will use V's.

[Bubba]

when i was at uni before the YGB guide came out we'd often go to almscliffe, caley, brimham, slipstones etc. I never once heard V grades mentioned.

Well no fucker used them then - it's the Yorks guide that's cemented the V grade into place innit.

[Bubba]

font grades for grit is what we're talking about.

I've yet to see one good reason for this posted here, apart from the "Font is like grit" argument which is crap anyway. Pick the right problems and Font can be compared to just about anywhere.

how else would you explain the crazy gradin of oz n the think of a number, any number gradin of the americans

So everywhere that uses Font grades is perfectly graded? Come on  :roll:

[a dense loner]

just use V grades then, since johnny, dave, percy n i can't give a decent argument. seems we're so behind the times since cameron-duff gave us that mighty tome, which is in fact, bollocks. sorry dave you will have to change all your 8a probs to V n then convert back again :wink: