That it states the gear is dubious ("rusty") and to use discretion does not come across as an endorsement or advocation of doing so or promoting doing the first two pitches of either route and then abseiling.
If these were not two "great/lovely" HVSs and were instead two 3* E5s - and let's say that the first is a Bancroft route and the second an Allen route - that finished at the cave and could go no further simply because the wall above was perfectly (i mean properly, never climbable by anyone, blank), what would be the situation then?Just paying devils advocate...
Piccadilly Circus ** E2 5c 24m. The middle finger crack leads to the cave (worthwhile at HVS 5b) and poor belays - best continue. A tricky traverse left and thin wall gain a ledge on the arete. Trend right to finish. FFA. Steve Bancroft 1976Oxford Street ** E3 6b The wide left-hand crack (a stiff HVS 5a pitch) leads to the cave; poor belays, it is better to press-on. A very hard move through the notch in the overhang (good gear but awkward to place - especially for the short) accesses the easier upper wall.FAA. Peter Biven 1956. FFA. Phil Burke 1969
BMC and cockfax guidebooks describing the routes as being 'great hvs's to an abseil from the cave'
a precedent that's it's OK to bolt grit.
The fundamental point seems to me to be that the placing of a bolt was discussed at the correct forum (the BMC meet) and it was decided not to place one, so until the issue is again discussed and a different agreement is reached no bolt should be placed. This bolt should be removed ASAP.
Personally I always looked at the various bits of tat in the cave that you could see from the ground and thought "I'm not going up there until I can climb out the top" 'cause they all looked ancient and shit from the ground.
I know you have a poor relationship with Rockfax in light of their North Wales select guide but it appears to have slightly jaded your opinion here.
I waltzed up the first pitch of Coventry Street and then had a proper faffing nightmare adrenaline is brown setup wondering about what to do to get pout of the cave.
"The cave is sandstone - soft sandstone at that rather than grit. A technical point I know."
Shark, I'm sorry but your continuum sounds like a degree of sophistry.
I see the cocktalk thread is up to the usual standard.
As it stands anyone could still climb to the ledge, stick a couple of cams at the top of the crack then lower off, and ab from the top for the gear. Or walk to the right end of the cave and see if you fancy abbing off the peg currently with a krab on it. Or go and do one of the other great easy access HVSs within 30seconds walk.
Quote from: Oldmanmatt on June 04, 2014, 03:51:34 pmNah... As an outsider, very much pro-Sport. I cannot see any justification to bolt something which can be easily protected, where gear can be easily recovered by a short Abseil, on the basis that there used to be a peg/stake of dubious reliability. Why were people using a dodgy stake anyway, if abing to recover gear was straightforward? A 20m buttress? Less than half a rope? And I see from Rockfax that it's not overhanging above, correct? Is it possible to ab in an stand safely in the cave (attached to ab rope, not off belay)?It's not quite as simple as that.The top of the crag is pretty chossy so abbing into the cave invariably involves knocking stuff down onto the ground below (and anyone down there)
Nah... As an outsider, very much pro-Sport. I cannot see any justification to bolt something which can be easily protected, where gear can be easily recovered by a short Abseil, on the basis that there used to be a peg/stake of dubious reliability. Why were people using a dodgy stake anyway, if abing to recover gear was straightforward? A 20m buttress? Less than half a rope? And I see from Rockfax that it's not overhanging above, correct? Is it possible to ab in an stand safely in the cave (attached to ab rope, not off belay)?