[Fiend]

Cheers JB, that is a spot on post. I didn't really want to get into the grade issue myself but since you've mentioned it I agree with all of that.

partly because I've done most of the ones that matter to me, and partly because I realised insisting on NO pads was more about pre-empting armchair criticism/ 'earning' a certain grade than practicality. For starters, you want a dry spot to start off.

I bought myself a 75p doormat from Ikea last night for the dry spot

Both the practicality and the motivations are issues that interest me.

[SA Chris]

But if you smash up both ankles don't come running to me, or post up on NNFN.

Really??
If I choose to go lead climbing (more risky) instead of top-roping and hurt myself, am I allowed to post in NNFN?
If I choose to go trad climbing (more risky) instead of sport climbing and hurt myself, am I allowed to post in NNFN?
If I choose to go highballing (more risky) instead of just sit-starts and hurt myself, am I allowed to post in NNFN?

It was meant to be a joke btw I though the first bit was obvious. Lighten the fuck up.

edit - spelling fix

[slackline]

Use the emoticons 

[SA Chris]

or just read tagline.

[slackline]

...which is ambiguous because it uses the term 'may' and it is then impossible to tell when you are being serious or not.   

If you're fine with everyone thinking you're taking the piss all the time then great, but don't then expect anyone to take what you write seriously.

[petejh]

I bought myself a 75p doormat from Ikea last night for the dry spot

Both the practicality and the motivations are issues that interest me.

Did it have a stupid Scandinavian name like 'Hurdygurdy DorMatte'?

Cool to read other people's thoughts on this in a non-silly context. I've got a 12m overhanging arete proj on the go and it's french 7c/+ and unprotected, and the hardest climbing is near the top. The base is flat and I'll be using as many pads as I can get to the crag - you'll still seriously fuck yourself if you fall from the top and it's not a micro-route, unless End of the Affair et al is a micro route. However I'm still wondering if it should be attempted in it's natural state sans-pads. So there's obviously something about the nature of this game of 'climbing' which reasonates with the desire to 'not use pads', in a way 'not using skyhooks' doesn't so much.
Grade-wise I suppose without pads it's a no-brainer E-whatever (headpointed, so not  E anything, if you subscribe to the E = onsight school of bollocks). With loads of pads it's less clear-cut what E-grade it might be...
Which leads me to the inevitable conclusion that's it's definitely 7c X (or 7c+). But the E grade is useless for this sort of thing - i.e. a lot of modern hard 'trad' climbing, because it's been stretched to cover too much ground. (and should be dumped like a turd)

Oh yeah, when I say 12m - it'd probably be reported to the media and written up in some guidebooks as 15m - that's another weird thing about climbing, 'metres' aren't the universally accepted SI units defined by the International Bureau of Weights and Measures as used by the rest of the world for measuring things of interest. Instead, they seem to have flexible parameters (ironically), more like the size of caught fish. Ever properly measured 8 metres? It's well high.

[tomtom]

or just read tagline.

I think you need a tagline to your tagline...   

    <<  note

[Johnny Brown]

However I'm still wondering if it should be attempted in it's natural state sans-pads.

The question I would be asking is: which is more contrived? Do you normally have pads at the crag? How many? If you are drafting in loads of mates, to carry in loads of pads, to a crag folk normally just take a rope, then to me that's not in the spirit of things. Or the opposite might be true and ordering the hordes of boulderers to stop throwing pads under you would be equally contrived.

[Fiend]

Did it have a stupid Scandinavian name like 'Hurdygurdy DorMatte'?

It's called Sven.

Cool to read other people's thoughts on this in a non-silly context.

Indeed! Glad people are replying with stuff like this....on a forum like this!

I've got a 12m overhanging arete proj on the go and it's french 7c/+ and unprotected, and the hardest climbing is near the top. The base is flat and I'll be using as many pads as I can get to the crag - you'll still seriously fuck yourself if you fall from the top and it's not a micro-route, unless End of the Affair et al is a micro route. However I'm still wondering if it should be attempted in it's natural state sans-pads. So there's obviously something about the nature of this game of 'climbing' which reasonates with the desire to 'not use pads', in a way 'not using skyhooks' doesn't so much.
Grade-wise I suppose without pads it's a no-brainer E-whatever (headpointed, so not  E anything, if you subscribe to the E = onsight school of bollocks). With loads of pads it's less clear-cut what E-grade it might be...
Which leads me to the inevitable conclusion that's it's definitely 7c X (or 7c+). But the E grade is useless for this sort of thing - i.e. a lot of modern hard 'trad' climbing, because it's been stretched to cover too much ground. (and should be dumped like a turd)

This is pretty much the James Pearson school of "HTF do I do/describe/report/compare this??" - which becomes an issue doing new stuff because you're setting out and describing a path for others to follow, and you want to be able to convey the experience usefully and accurately to them. Obviously JB is on the money about how natural or contrived something is (and in my own experience of the routes I do without pads, they are a natural result of "wandering along the edges looking for a pleasing challenge"cos I've got no mates and the few I do have are fucking sport climbers or road bikers).

It sounds like your project fits into the NU grey area between highballs and fuckinghighballstilldeathsolosevenwithpadsdown. Should it be tried without pads? What would be your motivation for that?

In terms of grade, it's probably one of those where the combination of a modern highball grade - whether it's F7c X or Font 7C !! - along with a now-antiquated E grade would still be useful. E.g. 7c X (E10 6c) vs 7c X (E8 6c) will still give useful information - no-one is going to do it in the E-whatever style but it lets others know just how highball it is. A bit like Jordan's Tide And Time @ Brimham or Will's Hired Goons @ Gardoms.

[petejh]

It sounds like your project fits into the NU grey area between highballs and fuckinghighballstilldeathsolosevenwithpadsdown. Should it be tried without pads? What would be your motivation for that?

In terms of grade, it's probably one of those where the combination of a modern highball grade - whether it's F7c X or Font 7C !! - along with a now-antiquated E grade would still be useful. E.g. 7c X (E10 6c) vs 7c X (E8 6c) will still give useful information - no-one is going to do it in the E-whatever style but it lets others know just how highball it is. A bit like Jordan's Tide And Time @ Brimham or Will's Hired Goons @ Gardoms.

Yeah I think 7c X (E9) tells you the nature of it best. The trouble is that doesn't fit into the system we have and which has been thoroughly abused.
It's definitely not a highball - if it was on the grit it'd be a proper route. When I say 12m I mean actually 12m, i.e. what would often be described in the climbing world as 15m    Might be called a highball in Bishop from the pics I've seen!
My motivation for doing it without pads? To look good. Or stupid if I fall off.

[Boredboy]

I'm glad Yorkshire isn't taken over by these roving padded hoardes with their new fangled electronic devices!

I like that you denigrated climbers filming themselves and then went on to talk about a climbing film...

Hey, the post wasn't meant to denigrate climbers for filming themselves, in fact I love watching home made climbing movies and make some myself. It was more just an introspective look at what slightly bothers me about the current state of play in climbing and the use of loads of pads. But like everyone says, each to their own, of course. My comments about the some climbers video were just me thinking out aloud about the paradox in what I was saying. Basically what JB said in his reply, and what was meant by the question mark at the end of my last post that wasn't re-quoted in the reply. Or something like that 

[Pantontino]

It sounds like your project fits into the NU grey area between highballs and fuckinghighballstilldeathsolosevenwithpadsdown. Should it be tried without pads? What would be your motivation for that?

In terms of grade, it's probably one of those where the combination of a modern highball grade - whether it's F7c X or Font 7C !! - along with a now-antiquated E grade would still be useful. E.g. 7c X (E10 6c) vs 7c X (E8 6c) will still give useful information - no-one is going to do it in the E-whatever style but it lets others know just how highball it is. A bit like Jordan's Tide And Time @ Brimham or Will's Hired Goons @ Gardoms.

Yeah I think 7c X (E9) tells you the nature of it best. The trouble is that doesn't fit into the system we have and which has been thoroughly abused.
It's definitely not a highball - if it was on the grit it'd be a proper route. When I say 12m I mean actually 12m, i.e. what would often be described in the climbing world as 15m    Might be called a highball in Bishop from the pics I've seen!
My motivation for doing it without pads? To look good. Or stupid if I fall off.

Limestone headpointing? - it'll never catch on (even at a crag with an existing E7). 

[petejh]

It sounds like your project fits into the NU grey area between highballs and fuckinghighballstilldeathsolosevenwithpadsdown. Should it be tried without pads? What would be your motivation for that?

BTW my previous reply was a bit flippant, apologies. My motivation would partly be 'to look good'. But other major parts of my motivation would be the desire to have developed various climbing skills to a good-enough standard so that I could contemplate doing it with zero margin of error.

[adamb]

Hullo Fiend

I was one of the people who rocked up as you'd been on the rock for 20 mins, so I feel a bit obliged to post! (I don't remembering offering you our pads, but maybe we did - though it was pretty clear what you were up to..).

Me and my buddy talked a bit about the "no pads" thing on the way back to the van (think you were just behind us so maybe you heard) - I was mostly pretty impressed at your self control in not asking for any pads to be brought over even thought they were readily available.  I'd find that difficult.  I've done some highball stuff without pads but only when I haven't had them with me.  Upon reflection, this probably suggests that either my impatience (not wanting to wait for another day) or laziness (not wanting to walk back for pads) quite often determines the style in which I climb these things.  And these are bad reasons compared to your motivations...

Related to that, the thing you said when you got down (about you having wanted to do it in this style for years due to its history/importance to you personally etc.) struck a chord.  So I agree with JB that on these things, it's down to personal choice.  And if you'd busted both ankles, I wouldn't have begrudged you posting in NNFN.  But you didn't, and you obviously got a hell of a lot out of the experience.  Nice one.

The other thing I found very impressive is that you still had circulation in your fingers after 20 mins.  It was a bit cold.

Cheers

Adam

[Fiend]

Hullo! Thanks for your post - and thanks for the lift back up (whether it was you or your buddy!)

You guys might not have explicitly offered me pads but there was a vibe that you were going to get on DIY at some point and would be happy to chuck the pads there while I finished it off. Certainly no interference though.

I wasn't listening much following you down to the vans....I don't really think of myself having much self-control, I guess I am just used to finding climbing fucking hard mentally for me and resisting pads is not much more difficult than the usual terror / inhibition / self-doubt etc....it's whether the desire overcomes it.

My fingers were boiling by that time. Seriously. RH had been numb from 0-5 minutes and after that I was mostly hanging around to let them cool down

[Will Hunt]

Each to their own. If you want to do something padless then all power to you. However I don't think that anybody should feel ethically inferior for using pads. To deliberately shun pads would be the equivalent of climbing without cams/sticky rubber/dynamic rope/harnesses/whatever depending on how far back you want to go.

You could argue that pads are more cumbersome than a rack of cams but I think it just depends what you go out to do on a particular day. If I go out highballing then I'll take bouldering stuff and a couple of pads. I'll be restricted to climbing boulder problems and routes suitable for highballing, but only as much as if I go out sport climbing for the day then I can't easily just nip up a trad route. There's plenty of routes in the Peak that now fit comfortably into a highball category but lets not be under the illusion that all the hard routes in the Peak have been ruined by being made too easy (because isn't that, at least in part, what the objection is about?). Is anyone going to be highballing Pete W's new route at the Roaches in a hurry? Not by the look of those photos!

As to the "Dude!" atmosphere at crags, I have not experienced this. If you go out with just a few mates and everyone takes 2/3 pads then you can quite quickly amass a good landing without any need to ruin the nice atmosphere. I think JB is right that the pads don't change the climbing itself and that you can't cheat your way up a route with just pads. I also think that on the proper highballs, unless you do it an awful lot and get very good at falling off, it is still going to be piss scary doing hard moves at height. The ones with the skills and the minerals will get up, the others will not.

[dave]

I was reading this thread the other day and thinking it was a bit weird of our adidas&camo clad rock warrior to not want a pad on DIY, but thinking about it again I realised I'm basically doing the same thing with archangel at stanage. Not done it yet but would not do it with a pad (well, maybe one to wipe my feet on), and didn't go anywhere near it last easter when it was up to its nuts in snow. I don't know why but the challenge of it as it is normally is what attracts me to it, so anything that would detract for that I'm not arsed about. Not really bothered if it takes me 10 or 20 years to psyche up for it and do it, its not important. I think these days some people succumb to this idea that fast = good, and the faster you do something and the more things you get done in any given time the better things are. But its not always like that, sometimes its best to just play to your own tune.

[SA Chris]

lets not be under the illusion that all the hard routes in the Peak have been ruined by being made too easy

Surely any route itself is no easier with or without pads? Except maybe the assistance of 4" or so of foam on the first move? Easier to do maybe or easier to do safely, but the climbing is still unchanged.

[galpinos]

.......but thinking about it again I realised I'm basically doing the same thing with archangel at stanage. Not done it yet but would not do it with a pad (well, maybe one to wipe my feet on), and didn't go anywhere near it last easter when it was up to its nuts in snow. I don't know why but the challenge of it as it is normally is what attracts me to it, so anything that would detract for that I'm not arsed about. Not really bothered if it takes me 10 or 20 years to psyche up for it and do it, its not important.

My feelings about Archangel are exactly the same. DIY I'd chuck pads under as I only really became aware of it as something to highball in the BMC guide but that arete ie something I've dreamed about climbing for years, from before I even knew bouldering existed.....

Reason for edit - Re-reading my post I realised it looked like I was belitling Fiend's climbing so re-wrote it to express what I actually meant......

[slackline]

lets not be under the illusion that all the hard routes in the Peak have been ruined by being made too easy

Surely any route itself is no easier with or without pads? Except maybe the assistance of 4" or so of foam on the first move? Easier to do maybe or easier to do safely, but the climbing is still unchanged.

I think JB is right that the pads don't change the climbing itself and that you can't cheat your way up a route with just pads. I also think that on the proper highballs, unless you do it an awful lot and get very good at falling off, it is still going to be piss scary doing hard moves at height. The ones with the skills and the minerals will get up, the others will not.

[Fiend]

I'll happily take accusations of weirdness! Good post d_pazzle. Taking the long term view can be quite hard.

DIY I'd chuck pads under as I only really became aware of it as something to highball in the BMC guide

That might be where my problem lies - far too much time spent revising guidebooks over the years on the bog, reading and re-reading them in accordance with most bowel movements. Thus I've become pretty aware of most things that would take my fancy...

[SA Chris]

lets not be under the illusion that all the hard routes in the Peak have been ruined by being made too easy

Surely any route itself is no easier with or without pads? Except maybe the assistance of 4" or so of foam on the first move? Easier to do maybe or easier to do safely, but the climbing is still unchanged.

I think JB is right that the pads don't change the climbing itself and that you can't cheat your way up a route with just pads. I also think that on the proper highballs, unless you do it an awful lot and get very good at falling off, it is still going to be piss scary doing hard moves at height. The ones with the skills and the minerals will get up, the others will not.

I can read slackers, I agree with that second bit he wrote , but not the first bit. Thanks for being so really useful though, I'm sure Will can respond to it himself, I'll converse with him about it.

[slackline]

I can read slackers, I agree with that second bit he wrote , but not the first bit.

You've confused the hell out of me...

You wrote that the route is no easier with pads as the climbing is unchanged when you wrote Surely any route itself is no easier with or without pads?  and the climbing is still unchanged..

Will clearly said that hard routes aren't any easier when writing lets not be under the illusion that all the hard routes in the Peak have been ruined by being made too easy (i.e. hard routes are still hard routes, regardless of pads being used) and further qualified that when writing that pads don't change the climbing. 

What exactly is it that you disagree with? 

Its far from clear to me so you'll have to spell it out in black and white if you can be bothered (I expect you can as you seem to have more time to waste than me).

Thanks for being so really useful though

 

[petejh]

Can you two get a room   

[SA Chris]

 

exactly.