[Nibile]

Here's an interesting article from T-nation.
http://www.t-nation.com/free_online_article/most_recent/contrast_training_for_power_and_explosiveness
I am interested in trying it, am thinking about possible combinations for climbing.
Obviously one max pull up followed by bodyweight pull ups.
Would it work with one armers and normal pull ups?
If anyone else is interested, I'd say split and discuss.

[krymson]

Here's an interesting article from T-nation.
http://www.t-nation.com/free_online_article/most_recent/contrast_training_for_power_and_explosiveness
I am interested in trying it, am thinking about possible combinations for climbing.
Obviously one max pull up followed by bodyweight pull ups.
Would it work with one armers and normal pull ups?
If anyone else is interested, I'd say split and discuss.

Just did this at the gym today and... WOW. 

Details:
1. Warm up set 1:  2 reps body weight regular pullups, then some stretching.
2. Warm up set 2: 4 reps 10kg weighted pullups
3. Heavy set: 2 reps 18kg weighted pullups ,basically my 2 or 3 rep max. Rest 30s
4. Explosive set: 3 reps bodyweight plyometric  pullups .

I usually absolutely suck at plyometric pullups but today after the heavy set i felt incredibly light -- it may have been partly the psychological impact of suddenly pulling with less weight but that cant fully explain why i was exploding off the bars. Usually if i try go plyometric i can barely get my hands off the bars but on my 1st PAP rep i cleared the bar by an inch and even on the 2nd rep i was able to let go of the bar with my hands.

Definitely seems like something worth pursuing.

 I should note the article suggests resting a bit between reps of the explosive set , which i forgot to do.

The pullups are nice but i wonder if this would be more effective climbing wise with a campus board(on the big rungs of course) or a system style board with jugs.

I know climbing is upper body, but the article sounds like it would also be directly applicable to squats/jumps which could be useful for dyno ability as well.

[Luke Owens]

Really interesting concept, keen to give this a try with Pull-ups.

[Tommy]

I know a few climbers and coaches who use/like this and I believe they're pretty happy with the results. It's another tool in the box, but no magic pill.

[Nibile]

I wonder if it could work also with one armers and normal pull ups. Like doing a max one armer each arm, then bodyweight pull ups. The movement isn't exactly the same.
Opinions?
I'd like to give this a try for a few weeks, but for the moment I'm very inconsistent at the gym and I never know when I'll be going.
Anyway yes, it's another tool. There are no magic pills.

Could it work with boulder problems with added weight? Or is this too complex?

[Nibile]

Reading around a bit, I think that it works also with excercises that are not identical in their movement pattern.

[SEDur]

This is something a coach gave me to do on a campus board with a bunch of weights.
I have seen it work on others, but haven't stuck with it to make it work.

The only reason I would question its use on actual boulder problems is;
I would have thought it would be difficult to train a few max reps with a high enough weight ratio, on your average indoor climbs.
Then throw the weights and do more explosive bouldering on perhaps easier problems, and get an effective level from both parts of the exercise.

The jyst from what I remember being told, is that you really have to pull super hard to get the your brain and nervous system firing hard enough; the great impact of force on this systems coupled with the explosive reps afterwords are what give the gains in power. Its all to do with how you indirectly apply power. (EDIT: by that I mean how your sub concious and nervous system applies your muscles)

I remember doing a good set of these max reps and then sets to failure on various rungs, followed by explosive campus moves.

[krymson]

This is something a coach gave me to do on a campus board with a bunch of weights.
I have seen it work on others, but haven't stuck with it to make it work.

You're probably thinking of something else then. Read the article and check that it is the exact same protoocol.

I remember doing a good set of these max reps and then sets to failure on various rungs, followed by explosive campus moves.

For instance you shouldn't be doing anything to failure. in fact the reason for the 1RM or 2RM on the heavy lifts is that you are aiming for recruitment without fatigue, so you can really give it your all on the explosive sets.

If you do these properl the idea is that even your very first time doing this, you shoud notice more explosiveness than usual.

I'm a skeptic with this kind of stuff but i noticed a significant difference today.

[Nibile]

Hey thanks. Yes, I don't think it could be done on a bouldering wall. Too hard getting the 1 MR and also too complex: feet, core, tension, technique, fingers, etc.
I'll try with one armers and normal pulls next time in the gym.
I've been training one armers with a 3 seconds pause between every rep for a few sessions, and after the fist two sessions, the following days I thought my lats were going to rip my ribs off. Another level of fatigue.
Let's see how this other works.

[iwasmexican]

Could it work with boulder problems with added weight? Or is this too complex?

well i suppose it wouldnt really work with boulder problems, unless youre doing system style problems? as I understand it this exercise works to get individual muscles firing? and so unless the boulder problem only used a specific muscle (which only really ever happens on system boards) it wouldnt be much use?

[Stevie]

This is more commonly known as "complex training" if anyone wanted to find out more info on it. It has been used in a number of explosive style sports for a while now. This gives a fairly good yet simplified explaination of the effects it has on the CNS and why it works. http://www.brianmac.co.uk/complex.htm

My only bit of advice from my reading into complex training and experience of using it is to factor it into training carefully and gradually. If you use it too frequently you'll stop seeing improvements and if you don't rest (short and long term) you'll get injured.

[Nibile]

So it seems that a "normal" cycle would consist of one contrast session per week for 3/4 weeks. Is it correct. How long does it take to peak after the cycle? I know that particularly intense excercises take longer to overcompensate.

[Sasquatch]

You can also do these for fingers by combining max hangs with campus doubles.  Same basic protocol.

Another mechanism for training the explosive pull strength is chained speed pullups.  Basically what this does is attach a chain that rests on the ground and get lifted as you pull up, that way at the beginning there's no added weight, but by the end you've added all of the weight.  The idea is to make it so that you have to generate the speed at the beginning to be able to have the momentum to finish the pull. 

My only bit of advice from my reading into complex training and experience of using it is to factor it into training carefully and gradually. If you use it too frequently you'll stop seeing improvements and if you don't rest (short and long term) you'll get injured.

100 % agreement on this.  This is truly a short term nuerological change, that helps to maximize potential.

[Nibile]

Short term? So something to do right before the trip/session/competition?
Like one session per week for 3/4 weeks then on the 4/5th week the "performance"?

[Sasquatch]

Yes and no. 
I'm not sure if this is right, so hopefully someone will tell me If I've got it all wrong, but from what I've gathered, one of the keys to gaining strength is being able to activate muscles at their true potential so that the body is forced to adapt and improve.  Over time while training, most people reach a point where they aren't actually working at their potential anymore for a variety of reasons.  This is one of the reasons for changing workout routines.  Doing this type of complex training also forces a different type of adaptation and allows you to work at closer to your true potential. 

I think of it as a nuerological change allowing you to work at closer to your potential resulting in real gains. The problem with this is that like anything your body will adapt to it, so I find it most effective to use spareingly as a means to break through training plateaus, or as you mentioned:

Short term? So something to do right before the trip/session/competition?
Like one session per week for 3/4 weeks then on the 4/5th week the "performance"?

Hopefully that makes sense......

[Dexter]

how about for fingers campus on smallest possible edges followed by furthest pull possible on medium edge. Seems a bit difficult to gaugue the right level for finger strength as its not just simple contraction but that seems as close as possible.

For a board what about a really hard but small static move on tiny holds follwed by a huge dynamic move on slightly better ones.

Might try some of this tomorrow when I next train

[Nibile]

Hmm... It doesn't seem well tailored for fingers, to me. I don't know how it will work mixing static and dynamic. All the sources I've read talk just about concentric efforts.

[Dexter]

sorry by static I meant slowly moving towards the hold so not just a lock more slow pull. I know what you mean it just seems most of these arent really finger focussed more bicep which I dont really fell a huge need to train at the minute

[Nibile]

Tried this today. 1 one armer each arm, 30 seconds rest, 3 explosive pull ups with a 15 seconds interval between each. 5 sets. Let's see how I feel tomorrow.

[SEDur]

You're probably thinking of something else then. Read the article and check that it is the exact same protoocol.

I remember doing a good set of these max reps and then sets to failure on various rungs, followed by explosive campus moves.

After re-reading the article, it was the same principals.

I suppose said coach could be wrong in his methodology, and the exercises given.
He is pretty well known for training, coaching and all that stuff though; if you can get hold of him, he might be able to set the record strait from his experience.

I will ask him about it on Friday, when we head out bouldering.

[Sasquatch]

Tried this today. 1 one armer each arm, 30 seconds rest, 3 explosive pull ups with a 15 seconds interval between each. 5 sets. Let's see how I feel tomorrow.

How'd it feel?   

[Nibile]

Hey beast. Just seen this.
It was definitely a good session. I warmed up generally and then on the lat machine one handed up to slightly less than bodyweight. Probably overdid it a little bit in the warm up. Then I did five sets of contrast, keeping one armers maximal with some added weight.
So it was: 1 max one armer, 30" rest, 3 explosive normal pull ups with 15" between each rep.
Tired at the end.

The following day for sure I was stiff but not too bad. I went sport climbing and although on easy routes that I know well (up to 7b/+) I felt quite good. Bouldery routes obviously.
Unfortunaley I don't have time to be consistent at the moment so I don't know when I'll be able to do another session. For sure I didn't have as bad DOMS as after the session in which I trained one armers with a 3" pause between each rep.
I have to say that obviously I was more trained when I tried the contrast so this could also be a reason.

[Sasquatch]

Thanks!

[Nibile]

Yesterday I did a test and it went very well, I repeated my personal best from last year, when I was training almost every day.
I was coming from a week's worth of work, wine and dining out...  and it was 12 days since the contrast training session. In between I had only done some fingerboarding and some board climbing.
Something, somehow, works.
Probably mixing it up is a good choice.

[krymson]

Adding a bit more data to the mix, hopefully useful.

Tried the same routine as last week but made the mistake of using a dumbell for the weight ed pullups that was too light -- I was able to do 3 reps and could have gone for a fourth.  this ended up having no effect on my "explosive" plyometric pullups and they were just as sad as normal. I think the  weighted set  really needs to be close to max 1RM as possible.

I did the same thing with squats and then jumps but this time the weighted squats were close to my max, and there was a clear effect -- I jumped higher than i possibly ever have.

From what i can tell this really does what it claims but you gotta get the protocol right.