[Muenchener]

I have a project at one of my local walls at the moment (sad, I know, and I would be delighted to have a project outdoors instead if it ever stops f*cking snowing  ), and I don't have much experience of projecting stuff, so I'm wondering where it is on the power -> endurance spectrum I'm actually training.

The circuit is 30 moves and graded 7a. The hardest moves are right at the end and are hard enough that it took me several goes to get them in isolation; I'd guess around 6A+ or so.

The longest link I've managed so far is the first 24 moves. I feel out of strength when I fall off but not pumped. I make some technical mistake - lose body tension, get a foot placement wrong or something - and don't have enough strength in reserve to recover from it.

I rest a lot between attempts, around three to five minutes until I think I'm as recovered as I'm going to be, and I get about half a dozen decent attempts after warming up per session.

So - apart from gaining experience & confidence on something that's two grades harder than I've ever done consistently before - what is it that I'm actually physically training?

[abarro81]

Most would call it PE. Some would call it anaerobic power. Some would call it short resistance. It depends on what terminology and breakdown you refer to, but basically there's 2 kinds of PE: pumped to buggery and powered out. Sounds like you're training the latter.
Given this, you should try resting for longer. Try 10 minutes between goes. If you're trying really hard over 24 moves at your limit you wont be able to try again at your max after 3 minutes (or after 10 really, but longer than that can get kinda boring!).

[a dense loner]

Muench if the hardest moves are at the end and ure not getting to them make sure you try the circuit from before the crux and keep going, or ave a few mins rest after falling off and do this section, then having a long rest and going from the start again

[Oldmanmatt]

I have, secretly (and contrary to all advise and common sense), always felt my best climbing has come on the first attempt (without warm up) and everything after that is a declining, desperate, decent to disappointment.
I have always struggled with balancing "warm up" with "burn out".
The only thing that works for me is pacing myself and taking much longer rests than seem "right".
And over training really shows on projects. When I've been forced to let something go for a week or more, I've often found (not infallibly) I  waltz up the damn thing first try, on return (pretty sure, that's because my mind has been running through the sequence during the down time and I go back with it subconsciously already wired).
It's often the case that I'm convinced it is a lack of strength that is stopping me from completing a project. That is also rarely true and it almost always turns out to be shite technique/sequencing...

[Muenchener]

Muench if the hardest moves are at the end and ure not getting to them make sure you try the circuit from before the crux and keep going, or ave a few mins rest after falling off and do this section, then having a long rest and going from the start again

Thanks. It's a figure-8 circuit starting as it were at the centre of the 8. The second half is much harder and I haven't even linked it on its own yet, so I spend most of my time trying that and then try to get a couple good goes at the whole thing from the start. I've been making myself rest one song between burns; will try upping that to two or three.

[a dense loner]

Can I suggest bat out of hell or stairway to heaven to be the song of choice

[Oldmanmatt]

Or both...

[Muenchener]

always felt my best climbing has come on the first attempt (without warm up) and everything after that is a declining, desperate, decent to disappointment.

Well, I did warm up and work some sections first, but then my first proper go yesterday was my best. Got to move 29 out of 30 - second crux, and my high point so far. But 2nd & 3rd goes then ended at move 24, first crux. Resting songs clearly not long enough and/or expending too much mental energy watching DFBs whilst resting.

[Ti_pin_man]

  I had a coach session on Friday just gone and was advised rest should be one minute per successful hand hold.  At 30 moves that sounds too much rest but I guess it's not all hand holds but you still sound like you need to rest longer and project the hard bit until you've got it, then glue it to the rest.

[webbo]

Is it not one hand per minute resting for boulder problems rather than routes.

[mrjonathanr]

This is a redpoint. What I'd do is fine tune it all in 4-5 move sections, getting them just so, with good rests in between, making sure the end section was especially wired. I'd then rest for 20-30 mins, and have redpoint goes with 15-20 minute rests between goes, or more, if you're still pumped.

[ianv]

Why not just work the second part of the fig 8 till you have it totally wired then do it backwards so you have the hard bit first into the easy stuff then when you are comfortable with that, piss it in the correct direction.

FWIW 3-5 mins between goes doesn't seem a lot, 30 moves is effectively a red point and you would be taking 20mins or so between redpoint attempts. The Yuji magic red point rest period was 25mins and it seemed to work for him and his mates BITD.

[TobyD]

while we are on the topic...

thoughts on the notional training effect of a 8-12 move boulder problem repeated 8-10 times at around 80% of a rough 1RM (rep max) ie: to point of first failure. rest time between each rep equal to 3x climbing time.

[Muenchener]

while we are on the topic...

thoughts on the notional training effect of a 8-12 move boulder problem repeated 8-10 times at around 80% of a rough 1RM (rep max) ie: to point of first failure. rest time between each rep equal to 3x climbing time.

I have conducted this experiment. Was working a 3-bolt, about 8 metre bouldery route on Sunday on which I could do the moves after a few goes but was totally powering out on the redpoint attempt.

Went to the wall yesterday evening, i.e. 28 hours later, thinking I felt ok, only to find my forearms sore as soon as I pulled on to some PE circuits even though they felt fine when not on the wall.

I'd love to hear a physiological explanation of all this. What is it that my forearms contain too much/not enough of when I'm several moves into an intense sequence, not pumped, but just can't pull hard enough any more? Is it the same thing that there is still too much / not enough of a day later when my forearms feel fine until I actually try to use them?

I'm aware btw that the main answer for me is probably "learn to climb more efficiently so as to use/accumulate less of [whatever it is]". But even climbing efficiently there's a physiological wall that I would still hit eventually, and I'm interested in an abstract sense in understanding what it is.

[Ti_pin_man]

Even when youre not 'pumped', lactic acid may remain in your arms, so you might feel fine off the wall but get there and summarily fail.  aerobic exercise will help remove lactic acid quicker than purely doing sweet fa for a day. 

[iain]

Muench, my crude understanding is that it's about recovery periods, 2-3 days to recover from an intense strength session (eg. only doing theprotocolformerlyknownaslopez twice a week), 2 days-ish for ancap or PE, a day for pure endurance.
Toby might know the physiology behind it.

thoughts on the notional training effect of a 8-12 move boulder problem repeated 8-10 times at around 80% of a rough 1RM (rep max) ie: to point of first failure. rest time between each rep equal to 3x climbing time.

From what I've read elsewhere on here that's what I do for ancap.

[TobyD]

What is it that my forearms contain too much/not enough of when I'm several moves into an intense sequence, not pumped, but just can't pull hard enough any more?

ATP, or glycogen, or both. essentially not enough juice to sustain a contraction strong enough to do a powerful move. whether you call it short endurance, power maintenance or what ever, it is not being powerful enough after doing X number of preceding moves.