[Steve R]

Inspired by a brief Cliff visit yesterday, the list-maker in me has quickly knocked together a 7+8 draft for the coming season.  Anyway, here it is so far with a few arrows and exclaimation marks knocking around the place with their meanings as usual.  If people are interested then after meating it out here and refining then I/someone could make it into a pdf/wall chart/sticker book.

8b+
Bulbhaul

8b
Real Keelhaul

8a+
Cherry Falls
Keelhaul
Zen ↓

8a
Gaskin's Problem
Canine
All Natural

Play Dead ↓

Dialectics
Exorsist Short
Exorsist Long
Exorsist Super Long
Stu's Roof into DWR Left Hand
DWR Footless

7c+
lasting satisfaction
underhand super extension
Real Keel
The Bulb
Digital Death
Making Shapes ↑
Jess' Roof Left Hand
Stu's Roof
Stu's Roof Left Hand into DWR Ear Variation

7c
underhand extension ↓
The Keel ↓
Mat meets Buffy
Jess' Roof ↓
Demon Wall Roof Left Hand
Hot Dog Fromage Original ↑
Dolphin Belly Slap into DWR Ear Variation ↑
Dolphin Belly Slap into DWR ↓

7b+
slopey traverse
grape strain
gypsy 'bottom of sloping crack only' eliminate
stretch armstrong
sewer rat connection
top cat traverse
underhand
Natural Traverse
Matterhorn Arete Sit Start
Matterhorn Gully central green slab
Matt's Roof ↑
Streaky's Traverse
Stu's Roof Left Hand
Demon Wall Roof Ear Variation
Pistol Whip
Hot Dog Fromage (initial right heel allowed) ↓

7b
fieldside traverse
Crusis Sit Start (7a+ standing)
Virgin Crimp Eliminate
Wall Boulder slap
Buffy Wants Daddy
Silver Trout
Dark Side of Chi !
Hot Dog Fromage (Left-hand undercuts start – Morpho)
Pebble Wall Variation

7a+
unamed boulder rock over eliminate
Fractal
egg rose 7a+?
Steve's Wall
South Cave Traverse
Black Bulge ↓
Brown's Roof !!
Demon Wall Roof
Dreamland

7a
traverse into morrell's wall
morrell's wall mantel
Barley Mow !
C & A Traverse
Sloper Partol
Ed's Dyno
Sit start crack into Matterhorn arete
Patta's Arete
South Cave Dyno
Teaspoon Cave ↑
Pulpit 7a
Wall of Horrors Traverse
Little Greeny ↓
Syrette's Roof !
Si's Arete ↑
Dolphin Belly Slap
Pebble Wall ↓
Crucifix Traverse
Narrow wall left of crucifix crack

[nik at work]

I think Keelhaul is considered 8a now?? Although if concensus is 8a+ I'll not complain.
DWR LH is hard at 7c, I've heard several people suggest it is harder than Stu's Roof. Certainly warrants an up arrow if not an upgrade.

[Stubbs]

Are the exclamation marks and downgrading arrows from your own experience or from Yorkshiregrit, or idle speculation?

[JohnM]

What is the deal with Gaskins' Problem?  I can't find much info on it apart from that it is left of Cherry Falls.  Was Cherry Falls orginally done from sitting at the lowest break of just from a standing start and does it just finish matched in the high break?

[Steve R]

Are the exclamation marks and downgrading arrows from your own experience or from Yorkshiregrit, or idle speculation?

A combination of all those things up to 7C

Beyond that I've no juristriction so I've just put together the info from yorkshire grit, the elimates pdf on total climbing and the rockfax guide.

[andy_e]

Syrett's roof is not 7a is it?

Nice list! 

[Steve R]

I think Syrette's is worth 7a.  Though I guess it's a classic case of feeling harder due to a committing move at reasonable height.  I find it harder than a few others on the list there anyway, especially if you use the most obvious sequence: left hand on boss/crimp thing followed big rockover RH to ripple and again to jug.

[Steve R]

Right, first revision and having spotted a couple of 'wrong in the first place' entries:

8b+
Bulbhaul

8b
Real Keelhaul

8a+
Cherry Falls
Zen ↓

8a
Keelhaul
Gaskin's Problem
Canine
All Natural

Play Dead ↓

Dialectics
Exorsist Short
Exorsist Long
Exorsist Super Long
Stu's Roof into DWR Left Hand
DWR Footless

7c+
lasting satisfaction
underhand super extension
Real Keel
The Bulb
Digital Death
Making Shapes ↑
Jess' Roof Left Hand
Stu's Roof
Stu's Roof Left Hand into DWR Ear Variation
Hot Dog Fromage Original ↑

7c
underhand extension ↓
The Keel ↓
Mat meets Buffy
Jess' Roof ↓
Demon Wall Roof Left Hand ↑
Dolphin Belly Slap into DWR Ear Variation ↑
Dolphin Belly Slap into DWR ↓

7b+
slopey traverse
grape strain
gypsy 'bottom of sloping crack only' eliminate
stretch armstrong
sewer rat connection
top cat traverse
underhand
Natural Traverse
Matterhorn Arete Sit Start
Matterhorn Gully central green slab
Matt's Roof ↑
Streaky's Traverse
Stu's Roof Left Hand
Demon Wall Roof Ear Variation
Pistol Whip
Hot Dog Fromage (initial right heel allowed) ↓

7b
fieldside traverse
Crusis Sit Start (7a+ standing)
Virgin Crimp Eliminate
Wall Boulder slap
Buffy Wants Daddy
Silver Trout
Dark Side of Chi !
Hot Dog Fromage (Left-hand undercuts start – Morpho)
Pebble Wall Variation

7a+
unamed boulder rock over eliminate
Fractal
egg rose 7a+?
Steve's Wall
South Cave Traverse
Black Bulge ↓
Brown's Roof !!
Demon Wall Roof
Dreamland

7a
traverse into morrell's wall
morrell's wall mantel
Barley Mow !
C & A Traverse
Sloper Partol
Ed's Dyno
Sit start crack into Matterhorn arete
Patta's Arete
South Cave Dyno
Teaspoon Cave ↑
Pulpit 7a
Wall of Horrors Traverse
Little Greeny ↓
Syrette's Roof !
Si's Arete ↑
Dolphin Belly Slap
Pebble Wall ↓
Crucifix Traverse
Narrow wall left of crucifix crack

Any suggestions to tidy up Hot Dog Fromage mess?

[Stubbs]

Any suggestions to tidy up Hot Dog Fromage mess?

Leave in the original eliminate (i.e going from break to sidepull in roof to the lip, not using the arete for anything) and can the rest?  Your list could approach infinite length if you had al the variations and eliminates at the 'cliff...

[etjoset]

I can see this growing into the mother of all threads (Almscliff nerds and all)...

1/ Good though they are, I think Pebble Wall and Sloper Patrol are more like 6c+ than 7a. Similarly, I wouldn't argue with 6c+ for Crucifix Traverse and Dolphin BS either.
2/ What about the Virgin Extension Traverse at 7b+? and the full link at 7c?
3/ What is "unnamed boulder rockover eliminate"? Do you mean Below the Decks (P25 SD's guide)? If so, 6c+?
4/ What about the traverse on the right wall of the large slab boulder down the slope from Wall of Horrors? Not got a name but well known at 7a/+.
5/ Fieldside Traverse is a much better problem with the jug above the slopey wave eliminated, thereby forcing reliance on the slopers. This might push it to 7b+.

I'll offer free beer for life to the first person to arrange the list into an order of absolute difficulty that everyone agrees with.

[GCW]

I think DBS and Crucifix Traverse are worthy of 7a, they certainly trip a few people up.  Pebble Wall is just wrong.

Kissing the Cambodian?
Brincador?
Black Wall Dyno?

4/ What about the traverse on the right wall of the large slab boulder down the slope from Wall of Horrors? Not got a name but well known at 7a/+.

Do you mean the thing next to Patta's?

[GCW]

3/ What is "unnamed boulder rockover eliminate"? Do you mean Below the Decks (P25 SD's guide)? If so, 6c+?

I assume it's the thing that starts as BtD then rocks up left to finish.

[etjoset]

4/ What about the traverse on the right wall of the large slab boulder down the slope from Wall of Horrors? Not got a name but well known at 7a/+.

Do you mean the thing next to Patta's?

I meant the thing on the side of the big easyish slab (P62, problem 8, ACD guide - V7; P38, problem 3, SD guide- 7a). I thought 7a+, for what it's worth.

[GCW]

Gotcha, getting WoH confused with DWR.  Sacrilege 

[Steve R]

Your list could approach infinite length if you had al the variations and eliminates at the 'cliff...

Good point! Bearing this in mind I'd agree:

Leave in the original eliminate (i.e going from break to sidepull in roof to the lip, not using the arete for anything) and can the rest?

is best thing to do for hot dog and the like

[Steve R]

I can see this growing into the mother of all threads (Almscliff nerds and all)...

Cool, should get a good list in the end then!

1/ Good though they are, I think Pebble Wall and Sloper Patrol are more like 6c+ than 7a. Similarly, I wouldn't argue with 6c+ for Crucifix Traverse and Dolphin BS either.

Any Almscliff list has to have Pebble Wall on it.  It would be harsh not to have it and Dolphin on with down arrows.  Sloper Patrol and Crucifix Traverse especially I guess can be dropped?

2/ What about the Virgin Extension Traverse at 7b+? and the full link at 7c?
Yep, in they go. Any arrow suggestions?

3/ What is "unnamed boulder rockover eliminate"? Do you mean Below the Decks (P25 SD's guide)? If so, 6c+?

No it's an eliminate on below the decks.  consider it dropped I reckon.

4/ What about the traverse on the right wall of the large slab boulder down the slope from Wall of Horrors? Not got a name but well known at 7a/+.

cool, always overlooked this one, see now it's starred in the YGB guide - This is the kind of thing I hoped would happen

5/ Fieldside Traverse is a much better problem with the jug above the slopey wave eliminated, thereby forcing reliance on the slopers. This might push it to 7b+.

Yeah I remember seeing this before.  Didn't UTG do an extension to this too?

I'll offer free beer for life to the first person to arrange the list into an order of absolute difficulty that everyone agrees with.

I'll offer a free beer to anyone who teaches me how to quote better....

[Steve R]

Kissing the Cambodian?
Brincador?
Black Wall Dyno?

good work.  Know grades for them?

[slackline]

I'll offer a free beer to anyone who teaches me how to quote better....

Well you've sussed out how to use the "Quote" button, but clearly you want to interweave your replies between that which you are quoting and not have it appear as you have simply written within the quote.

The solution is to look at the very very top and very very bottom of the text the exists after you've clicked on the quote function.

You'll see something like

Code: [Select]

[quote author=Steve R link=topic=12706.msg223286#msg223286 date=1255377745]
I'll offer a free beer to anyone who teaches me how to quote better....
[/quote]

Now the key is to copy that top line and remember what the last one is, then simply close the quote where you want to, and start quoting again afterwards....

Code: [Select]

[quote author=Steve R link=topic=12706.msg223286#msg223286 date=1255377745]
I'll offer a free beer[/quote]

Oooh, you've caught my interest, let me read on...

[quote author=Steve R link=topic=12706.msg223286#msg223286 date=1255377745] to anyone who teaches me how to quote better....
[/quote]

Thats easy, here let me show you...

Would appear as...

I'll offer a free beer

Oooh, you've caught my interest, let me read on...

to anyone who teaches me how to quote better....

Thats easy, here let me show you...

I'll have a keg of Farmers Blonde please 

[etjoset]

Steve,

On reflection, DBS, Crucifix Traverse and Sloper Patrol are probably all fair at 6c+/7a. They perhaps ought to be in there by virtue of their classic status.
The eliminate on Below the Decks is new to me, so I'll give that a go next time.
UTG has a there-and-back style extension to Fieldside at 7b+/7c, as well as the version using only the slopers at the start.
Sit start to Dreamland at 7b+?
Extended version of Slopey traverse, staying low across Morrell's and then reversing the 7a traverse - 7c/+?

[GCW]

Kissing the Cambodian?
Brincador?
Black Wall Dyno?

good work.  Know grades for them?

UTG's work, not mine.
7c, 7b+, 7a+ from what I am told.  Ish.

[sjw]

What is Brincador?

[GCW]

Sitter to that arete right of Dreamland.

[Steve R]

Ok, next edit taking into account all comments so far.  Have omitted arrows for now as, on reflection, they were just my opinion or blind speculation (especially in the higher grades) - neither of which is particularly informative I don't suppose.  So in no particular order for now,

8b+
Bulbhaul

8b
Real Keelhaul

8a+
Cherry Falls
Zen

8a
Keelhaul
Gaskin's Problem
Canine
All Natural

Play Dead
Dialectics
Exorsist Short
Exorsist Long
Exorsist Super Long
Stu's Roof into DWR Left Hand
DWR Footless

7c+
lasting satisfaction
underhand super extension
Real Keel
The Bulb
Digital Death
Making Shapes
Jess' Roof Left Hand
Stu's Roof
Stu's Roof Left Hand into DWR Ear Variation
Hot Dog Fromage (Original method)
Slopey Traverse Extension

7c
underhand extension
The Keel
Mat meets Buffy
Jess' Roof
Demon Wall Roof Left Hand
Dolphin Belly Slap into DWR Ear Variation
Dolphin Belly Slap into DWR
Virgin Traverse Full Link
Kissing the Cambodian

7b+
Fieldside Traverse (no jug)
slopey traverse
grape strain
gypsy 'bottom of sloping crack only' eliminate
stretch armstrong
sewer rat connection
top cat traverse
underhand
Natural Traverse
Matterhorn Arete Sit Start
Matterhorn Gully central green slab
Matt's Roof
Streaky's Traverse
Stu's Roof Left Hand
Demon Wall Roof Ear Variation
Pistol Whip
Virgin Traverse Extension
Dreamland Sit Start
Brincador

7b
Crusis Sit Start
Virgin Crimp Eliminate
Wall Boulder slap
Buffy Wants Daddy
Silver Trout
Dark Side of Chi !
Pebble Wall Variation

7a+
slab boulder beneath Wall of Horrors right wall traverse (better name available?!)
Fractal
egg rose 7a+?
Steve's Wall
South Cave Traverse
Black Bulge
Brown's Roof !
Demon Wall Roof
Dreamland
Crusis
Black Wall Dyno

7a
traverse into morrell's wall
morrell's wall mantel
Barley Mow !
C & A Traverse
Sloper Partol
Ed's Dyno
Sit start crack into Matterhorn arete
Patta's Arete
South Cave Dyno
Teaspoon Cave
Pulpit 7a
Wall of Horrors Traverse
Little Greeny
Syrette's Roof !
Si's Arete
Dolphin Belly Slap
Pebble Wall
Crucifix Traverse
Narrow wall left of crucifix crack

getting there?

[Steve R]

just seen egg rose 7a+ still in there.  This is what yorkshiregrit describes as:
"From a sit start at some arbitrary holds, traverse right on more arbitrary holds to finish wherever you want. Ridiculous "rose" move optional. A fine natural line."  don't think i've tried this. any good?

(and can it be called 'Rose and the Egg')

Black Bulge, in at 7a+, is the problem just left of Wall of Horrors start - finishes on the same jug.

[uptown]

I spent the best part of 2 years researching, drafting, re-drafting, gap-filling, grading, re-grading, finishing and then archiving a list to Almscliff blocs (and for that matter the rest of Yokshar.) - I decided against a pure 7 + 8 list, including the stand-out and histiorically important easier problems too.

Part of the motivation was a coping mechanism, the other a romantic idea that records should be as historically complete as possible and inclusive of more than just name and grade. I published it once in the early days on ukb.

Needless to say I don't have time to type it out though for now I'll give you 5 comments on your list Steve.

#1 - Bulbhaul is not 8b+.
#2 - DWR footless is not a problem.
#3 - Making shapes is 8a.
#4 - Egg rose is actually 'The rose traverse' 7b+/7a+ depending upon whether you use the higher sloping break in the central section.
#5 - Fieldside can be broken down into 'Fieldside' 7b, 'The Wayne Fontana trip' 7b+, 'Waynes wonderful world' 7b+ and 'Mindbending' 7c.