[north_country_boy]

  Wise words Stu.....

My feelings exactly......I have read somewhere that James no longer has much interest in repeating other people's routes and that he is more interested in putting up his own (evident with The promise/The Groove/ TWOL), however maybe the downgrading of his own routes may lead to him repeating others to 'reassess' his grading scale????? (and yes i know what routes he already has on his CV)

Superstition would be a great place to start....

[IanP]

I don't see it as histionics, only opinion giving. Why do you view it as histrionics? Would love to insult you based on that response, but won't

Feel free to insult me, I've got thick skin.

Just checking down the quotes available below we have 'eunuchs at a orgy', '2008-internet-forum-wannbees-media-hype-shyte', 'shit talked ', 'Its a shame idiots like... ', 'numpties', ' blatantly slagging someone off for no reason'  -could we agree on very strong opinions in place of reasoned argument then?

[Sloper]

Eunuchs at an orgy is an insult I haven't used in years and its rathe pleasing to see it resurface.

Anyway, with regard to the issue at hand, Stu is correct and that there's nothing wrong with debate, even ill informed debate has its place however, having seen what's been posted on UKC I think that the debate has shifted a good distance from fair comment and debate and is within the realm of what might properly be considered defamation.

Grades are a subjective matter and exist solely within a societal construct, as such the validity of the grade depends on the societal norms accepted by the proposer of the grade and the norms of those assessing their interpretation of the grade: for this later group their opinion is coloured by factors which did not impinge on the grade initially mooted.

For me, what I find most unpleasant is the taint of dishonesty which too often accompanies the accusation of over grading but not undergrading.  In short whether the proposed grades settle down is the arbiter to the appropriate garde but this is no indicator of the first ascensionist's integrity, ego or cacpacity.

You will recall the little farrago over 'Thumbing my father' on Stanage, the FA proposed a grade of V7 I thought V3/4, does this mean that the FA was overgrading?  No.  Does it mean that I was over grading? No.  We both climbed a line in a similar place and expressed our own subjective judgements and are both correct, who was more correct will be for others to decide.

[slackline]

i did not really want to post his picture, but I think all this talk about james being a massive overgrader is getting a little bit silly now,

Isn't this just making a joke that Kevin Jorgeson thought that the UK grading system was closed and the upper end was E10 until he and James chatted (see the paragraph that follows the Andy Popp quote)?

At least thats how I interpreted it, I guess others will see it differently.

neilh : if you don't want to post things you don't have to

[SA Chris]

I don't see it as histionics, only opinion giving. Why do you view it as histrionics? Would love to insult you based on that response, but won't

Feel free to insult me, I've got thick skin.

Just checking down the quotes available below we have 'eunuchs at a orgy', '2008-internet-forum-wannbees-media-hype-shyte', 'shit talked ', 'Its a shame idiots like... ', 'numpties', ' blatantly slagging someone off for no reason'  -could we agree on very strong opinions in place of reasoned argument then?

That wasn't me saying that, I now understand where you are coming from now. Strange time to quote me though.

[grimer]

Yes, discussion is most certainly needed, and it needs to be removed from any discussion of the personalities involved. As someone involved in guidebooks, it would be nice to have a rational debate about the grades of these things, free from any sense that you were hurting someone's feelings.


Things like posting that cartoon seemed only designed to hurt feelings, which is the other side of the coin.

[Stu Littlefair]

Quite right Grimer, me old mucker.

There has been some postings, especially in the other place, which seem designed simply to offend James. If that was prevalent on this thread I'd have had a go at that too.

[T_B]

Yes, discussion is most certainly needed, and it needs to be removed from any discussion of the personalities involved. As someone involved in guidebooks, it would be nice to have a rational debate about the grades of these things, free from any sense that you were hurting someone's feelings.

The debate as I see it is how on earth do you grade these super-short, bouldery things. I graded my route at Black Rocks E7 7a, not cos it was dangerous in any way. In fact it is effectively 1 move with perfect gear by your feet. But grading it E6 seemed ridiculous. E for effort doesn't necessarily mean long and pumpy I don't think.

On the grit, we know that grades can be very subjective. I mean, poor old Lisa 5'3 Rands didn't exactly have the same challenge on EOTA or Gaia as Alex 'The Giant' Honhold. The cruxes of these two routes are so much harder if you're short (in fact, done completely differently in the case of Gaia).

P.S. Stu - I don't think it's worth getting angry about it and I don't think anyone is saying we can't debate the grades of routes we haven't been on . I don't know JP at all, but what winds me up a bit is how quickly some people are to suggest that JP was 'a bit daft' to have graded The Promise E10 or The Groove E10.

[Sloper]

Speaking of the other place, having read a couple of the threads its amazing that they haven't been pulled, I wonder why?  Lazy, ignorant and crass journalism or is it because they have a vested interest in controversey in keeping the visitor numbers up and with it the advertising revenues?

Anyway here's to the first E13 due in late 2009 / early 2010.  

T_B spot on about the physical element of the E grade representing the required amount of strength, power and stamina (punklet, flying butress direct and rock idol) but let's also not forget that the E grade is for the onsight.  Things like life assurance are probably just about E6 for the onsight but very very soft if you've spent a while practising the moves (in other words it isn't E6).  There is a rational argument for giving short grit routes bouldering grades and a rating of U, AA, A, X, XXX and to be honest I would support this but having said that I'd rather have the E5 tick for Help the Young than V7 A font 7a+ A

I tried to kick off a rational debate about grades on the bouldering thread but with approaching 100 viewings it has yet to receive a reply which means my argument is flawless or its johny dawes esq random ramblings which makes as much sense as reality tv.

[Pantontino]

Well said Stu, Rich, NCB, Ian P etc.

The level of outrage evident here is way off the mark. Even Gangle's posts were hardly earth shatteringly offensive. I went back and read them and they seemed fairly tame (one was a provocative suggestion, one just a statement of 'fact' regarding bouldering grades). James is in the limelight, there will always be the odd stray potshot sent in his direction. Like JB said, you hear way more scandalous banter (about all sorts of climbers) at the crag every day.

(PS Where did the piss take photo thing come from? Did somebody send it to you Neil?)

[stevie haston]

hello, I have a suggestion, it is simple, why dont some of you get on the Groove, on lead or on a top rope? There are a few here who are very good climbers/boulderers. I have been on the Groove and although it may be hard I cannot see how it could be E11, if it is E8 7C+font it should be within many of your capabilities. This is a very simple solution, and I cant see what is to stop you, oh and by the way I am well capapable of E8 and would defo give a safe route like this a go. I am not capable of E10 or E11, so I whish I was in the area, to try. I very much hope this helps, do not look apon it as anything else than a helpful suggestion, Gimmer would like to know, I would like to know, many of you would like to know. Stevie.

[dave]

alas i'm saving it for the onsight. sucks to be me.

[Houdini]

I don't care about much in climbing but I care even less if Pearson can grade or not.


He can fucking climb and that's where it's at, ladies.   

[Paul B]

He can fucking climb and that's where it's at, ladies.   

well put Houd.

(I would like to point out that the anonymous sniping on this thread isn't so anonymous)

[PATRuL]

I wonder if squirrels grade their routes? 
They climb everything with apparent ease.
And then there's monkeys ...
Curious, one suspects their grading system is leaps and bounds ahead of ours.

[Houdini]

Quite.

It's like the H-grade.  It never took off outside my sphere yet I rate it. 

[PATRuL]

Yes, tiz a same the world is allegedly so quantifiable, just as subjectivism cuts us of from this or that, so do over zealous tape measurers.
The world has tipped scales way beyond its capacity for measurement and is crumbling at every crust.
Love of something does not require obsession nor health and safety dayglo.
As the world apparently spins ever faster, more and more of us, (animals and plants too) continue to be hurled off in illness and dis-ease, premature death and extinction.
And we are saving the planet with what? 
Clearly the planet will prevail, its just Us crazy men really thinking help!
THEeverinCreasingWANTfoRnumberSandSUccess.GiVEmeGiveme=iaMtheBeSTThinking=pOverTy
The way we go on on this forum is just a mirror for the worlds fractious behaviour.
What really matters?
E numbers?
Or sitting down and having a real conversation?
How are we doing here?
Anxious, annoyed, desperate, jealous, happy, sad, whatever, need more....
Disorder, grows like cancer from our overt grasping and control freakery.
Who can i blame today or have a good rant at?
Americans? James Pearson? Bob Smith?
Taking account of the situation, one is able to relax, have a good look around, see further, and oh, yes i think i can fit a friend in there.

[PATRuL]

THEeverinCreasingWANTfoRnumberSandSUccess.GiVEmeGiveme=iaMtheBeSTThinking=pOverTy
Forgot to add this can also lead to =Elitism and a whole host of other non-sense if left unchecked.

So yes there is a place for grading, but my understanding of it is that it is meant to give one a reflection of the nature of a route, which is where the Severe, Hard Very Soft, bit comes in.
Seems like the whole spiral of £$£$£$£$£$ distorts the focus somewhat.
ONly we can judge the quality of our experience, however this is only part of the broken mirror, if we do not have enough self-knowledge, honesty, self-reflection then our motivation can be cloudy.
SO how to clean one's internal mirror?
This is beyond the physical mind and requires a whole bunch of ears.

Silence.

[Houdini]

Too many silver spoons / trustafarianism PATruL, there lies (one of) the problem(s).


Oh!  You want to earn a good living from something you enjoy?!  Well fuck me!  I'll bake a cake . . .

[PATRuL]

Ooooh, i think youve really put the cake amongst the pigeons.

I'm off to bed to read.

Good night and good baking.

[grumpycrumpy]

If you try to make a living out of something you enjoy , you'll still end up begrudging it ....
Read about  your pseudo-babble cakes PaTruL by all means  , bake your pseudo-babble cakes by all means , just stop regurgitating them on an unsuspecting public .....

[hongkongstuey]

alas i'm saving it for the onsight. sucks to be me.

I hope you've not watched Committed II yet then Dave...

[slackline]

Interesting short interview with Alex Honnold with commentary on E-grades and pretty much summing up all the nonsense about grades rather nicely (as others have already done so here).

Any thoughts about E-grades compared to the R, S, X suffixes?
Obviously I'm still learning E grades since I've only been here for a month [and spent much of the time in the rain]. I think the concept of E grades is really good, they do convey a lot of information. But I don't really know all that well. I still mentally convert everything here back to YDS.
R and X wouldn't really work at all over here [on Grit at least] since virtually every route would be considered R. They work well in the US though because routes are generally taller and better protected.
Basically, a route is a route, it doesn't matter that much how you number it. Ultimately you still just have to look at the route and decide if it looks like something you can do.

[tc]

Apropos all the nonesense about grades: as a confirmed grumpy old man sick to death of hyper-inflation, that Promise thing looks like a pretty good candidate for E5 7a to me

[account_inactive]